Mid-sole Cleat Position

[BoingBoing]

Anyone tried this? Anyone interested in trying it?

I've already started down this road, and will share my experiences if anyone is interested.

In case you didn't want to follow the link, I'm talking about moving my cleats back to the middle of my foot instead of the ball of my foot...

[KBL]

Interesting. That mod might make SPD's feel a bit like flats.

I've been toying with the idea of modifying (cutting, welding) my Frog cleats for more inward heel rotation. I'll start my own thread if and when I do it.

It's cool to see modifications like this being tried.

[kanga]

I haven't tried it, but I subscribe to Joe Friels blog as well and saw the article. What's intriguing to me is that I climb clipped in on non-technical stuff, but any technical climbs and all descents I ride unclipped and prefer the pedal under the arch of my foot -- mid-sole position. I never had thought of trying to put a cleat there. I have an old pair of mtb shoes that I wouldn't mind sacrificing in the name of an experiment.

For Joe Friel's typical readership though, I think many are triathletes, and I could see the advantages of a mid-sole. It doesn't use as much of the calf muscles to support your weight on the pedals, and might leave the lower legs feeling fresher for the run portion of a triathlon. Just a theory...

I might give it a try with the old shoes and a pair of multi-release cleats (which I'd have to buy).

[maxtheheathen]

Axle under the midfoot feels a bit weird to me, but I've been very happy now that I've moved my cleats back to their rear limit. Having the axle just behind the ball of the foot feels great, if it's too far forward I have achilles trouble.

[KBL]

It seems like a mid-sole cleat position would make it tougher to bunnyhop since your foot would no longer act like a lever spring.

The mid-sole cleat would likely affect the fit of the seat relative to the bars.

Cool idea, but for all-around trail riding it could have some drawbacks, or at least a learning curve.

[rojomas]

Originally Posted by KBL

It seems like a mid-sole cleat position would make it tougher to bunnyhop since your foot would no longer act like a lever spring.

It shouldn't make a differance. Kids riding BMX do it all day long. If you started out riding flats before you started riding clipless pedals you would probably be use to riding with the spindle pedal right under the arch of your foot.
Plus, If you're relying on the clipless pedals to bunny hop, you are doing it wrong. You should be able to bunny hop with out the aid of clipless pedals.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by rojomas

It shouldn't make a differance. Kids riding BMX do it all day long. If you started out riding flats before you started riding clipless pedals you would probably be use to riding with the spindle pedal right under the arch of your foot.
Plus, If you're relying on the clipless pedals to bunny hop, you are doing it wrong. You should be able to bunny hop with out the aid of clipless pedals.

Yep, exactly. The only real issue is re-thinking saddle position, probably have to lower it a bit.

[Pain Freak]

I'm like Kanga in that I unclip for tech spots weather up or down. So this may take some getting used to. I'm all for trying it as the pedals just seem to feel more comfortable to me when my foot is in this position. I ride my road bike with the cleats all the way in the back position (Keo's). This has saved my knees and feels very comfortable. I'll wait for others before I try this though.

[kanga]

Originally Posted by Pain Freak

I'm like Kanga in that I unclip for tech spots weather up or down. So this may take some getting used to. I'm all for trying it as the pedals just seem to feel more comfortable to me when my foot is in this position. I ride my road bike with the cleats all the way in the back position (Keo's). This has saved my knees and feels very comfortable. I'll wait for others before I try this though.

I think it's more comfortable, I feel more centered on the pedal, and with the seat dropped with a gravity dropper, there's less knee-bend with the arch over the axle of the pedal.

As far as bunny-hopping goes, I can bunny hop just fine unclipped. Perhaps not as high as somebody with clips who's pulling up on their feet, but the pull-up, push-forward motion seems to work for me.

[Bryguy17]

interesting concept. I could see running the cleats further back, but not necessarily all the way into the arch of your foot.

only problem I see is that you're losing power that comes from your calves for your downstroke (fairly significant source of muscle power if I'm not mistaken).

that, and you'll lose bump-absorbing ability. it may not be a big deal on a roadie or tri bike, but on a mountain bike, you still stand up and go down stuff. having your foot further behind the spindle means that your foot/ankle/calf area can absorb a lot of the bump (especially chattery small bump stuff), while taking strain off the rest of your leg.

think of your leg like suspension: your ankle covers a lot of the small bump compliance, and the knee/hip covering your big hits etc. moving your cleat to the arch of the foot lowers the leverage ratio of that area, but your spring rate (strength in your calf) remains the same. that all equals a stiffer ride.

iunno, that's what I thought of at first.

[kanga]

Originally Posted by Bryguy17

interesting concept. I could see running the cleats further back, but not necessarily all the way into the arch of your foot.

only problem I see is that you're losing power that comes from your calves for your downstroke (fairly significant source of muscle power if I'm not mistaken).

that, and you'll lose bump-absorbing ability. it may not be a big deal on a roadie or tri bike, but on a mountain bike, you still stand up and go down stuff. having your foot further behind the spindle means that your foot/ankle/calf area can absorb a lot of the bump (especially chattery small bump stuff), while taking strain off the rest of your leg.

think of your leg like suspension: your ankle covers a lot of the small bump compliance, and the knee/hip covering your big hits etc. moving your cleat to the arch of the foot lowers the leverage ratio of that area, but your spring rate (strength in your calf) remains the same. that all equals a stiffer ride.

iunno, that's what I thought of at first.

Hey Bry, I agree. There is some shock-absorbing capability from the pedal spindle under the ball of the foot as your ankle flexes. But with the pedal spindle under the arch that is reduced, but not gone. If you rode on your heels then it is gone completely. I'd think of it as 4" of ankle travel vs. 2" of ankle travel with the mid-sole. But that's why I have 6 1/2" of rear travel anyway!

I don't know when I'll have time to do it, (busy with the LA Bike Plan and CORBA right now), but I pulled out the old shoes, and I think I could make it work.

[Bryguy17]

Originally Posted by kanga

Hey Bry, I agree. There is some shock-absorbing capability from the pedal spindle under the ball of the foot as your ankle flexes. But with the pedal spindle under the arch that is reduced, but not gone. If you rode on your heels then it is gone completely. I'd think of it as 4" of ankle travel vs. 2" of ankle travel with the mid-sole. But that's why I have 6 1/2" of rear travel anyway!

I don't know when I'll have time to do it, (busy with the LA Bike Plan and CORBA right now), but I pulled out the old shoes, and I think I could make it work.

I've always been a hardtail rider at heart, so I've always been big on trying to absorb as much as possible with my body, and rely on suspension less. that's probably why I even thought about the entire bump-absorption thing in the first place. could be a moot point

looking forward to hearing how it works anyway though

[Jslow]

might take care of achilles problems that you developed from riding 1000 mies in a week bri?

[KBL]

Originally Posted by rojomas

It shouldn't make a differance. Kids riding BMX do it all day long. If you started out riding flats before you started riding clipless pedals you would probably be use to riding with the spindle pedal right under the arch of your foot.
Plus, If you're relying on the clipless pedals to bunny hop, you are doing it wrong. You should be able to bunny hop with out the aid of clipless pedals.

I can bunnyhop with or without clipless pedals, but I can get better height if the pedals are under the balls of my feet.

[BoingBoing]

Well, I've got the shoes cobbled together. Like some of you, I need to be able to ride unclipped. The place where you attach a cleat is hard and slick, so I found that I had to replace the "useless bit" that inexplicably comes with bike shoes.
It's a good thing that I had two old pairs of shoes, because a second pair of cleat nuts was needed. The only tools I needed, however, were a dremel and a tape measure.

I'll do some riding today and let you know what I find. I'll be on the Monocog, so no suspension and yes toe overlap. Should be a good test.

Originally Posted by Jslow

might take care of achilles problems that you developed from riding 1000 mies in a week bri?

Quit joshing, Josh. You know it takes me 9 days to ride that far!

[rwmagnus]

This is interesting. I've noticed when restarting on a steep slope I rarely get the second shoe clipped in. I usually just get the pedal around mid sole and grind it out from there. Once I get to an easier section I spend the time getting clipped in. I thnik it's worth the expierment.

[BoingBoing]

Originally Posted by rwmagnus

I usually just get the pedal around mid sole and grind it out from there. Once I get to an easier section I spend the time getting clipped in. I thnik it's worth the expierment.

This may end up being an advantage. I can tell you already that a disadvantage is you have less leverage unclipping. Pretty obvious now that I think about it, but it surprised me.

EDIT: What I said about leverage is hogwash. It's just as easy to unclip, it just feels a little different since I'm pivoting around a different point. Once I get used to it, it's fine.

[BoingBoing]

I have no idea whether or not I like the midsole cleat. I know I need to ride a lot both ways to figure it out. There are quite a few differences.

I know I won't be using a midsole cleat on my 29r. That toe overlap is just asking for trouble. But even on the 26r, the different cleat position changes where I can unclip. In the 3 and 9 o'clock position, only my forward foot could unclip easily.

Standing and mashing feels totally different and uses different muscles, but it might be easier. I can't tell cause it just feels weird right now. And of course there are the fit issues (lowering the seat, etc).

I'll probably continue the experiment.

And rwmagnus is right about restarting on climbs being easier.