Who's the dumbass?

[KeepsWhatHappens]

- I stand corrected. If you read the order below, November 10th looks like the first legal day.

ORDER NO. 02-07-12
OCCUPANCY AND USE
CLEVELAND NATIONAL FOREST
Pursuant to 36 CFR 261.50(a) and (b), to protect public health and safety, the following acts are
prohibited within the Cleveland National Forest. This order is effective from November 20, 2007
through November 09, 2008.
1. Going into or being upon National Forest System lands within the Santiago Fire Closure
Area, as described in Exhibit A and shown on Exhibit B. 36 CFR 261.52(e).
2. Being on National Forest System roads within the Santiago Fire Closure Area.
36 CFR 261.54(e).
3. Being on National Forest System trails within the Santiago Fire Closure Area.
36 CFR 261.55(a).
Pursuant to 36 CFR 261.50(e), the following persons are exempt from this order:
1. Persons with a permit from the Forest Service specifically authorizing the otherwise
prohibited act or omission.
2. Owners or lessees of private land within the Santiago Fire Closure Area, to the extent
necessary to gain access to their land.
3. Persons who reside within the Santiago Fire Closure Area, to the extent necessary to gain
access to their residences.
4. Any Federal, State or local officer, or member of an organized rescue or firefighting force
in the performance of an official duty.
These prohibitions are in addition to the general prohibitions in 36 CFR Part 261, Subpart A.
Done at San Diego, California, this 20th day of November , 2007
/w/ William Metz
William Metz
Forest Supervisor, Cleveland National Forest
A violation of these prohibitions is punishable by a fine of not more than $5,000 for an
individual or $10,000 for an organization, or imprisonment for not more than six months, or
both. 16 USC 551 and 18 USC 3559, 3571, and 3581.
This Order supersedes Order No. 02-07-11, dated November 15, 2007.

[ODB]

Regardless of when this pic was snapped, you're not helping matters the least for MTBers by posting (re-posting? ) it. Think about it.

[dirtyjeff]

Originally Posted by jasonmason

What an asshole.

Would've been really f'n hard to wait another 27 more days, wouldn't it? But no, they're that much more important than the rest of us and don't have to wait...sometimes i forget, if you're more important that the rest of us morons that actually respect the restrictions, well than it's ok...

Just to make it unequivocably clear...if you're the one riding in that picture, or if you've been riding the closed stuff at all while the rest of us wait, you're an asshole.

Period.

Agreed !

[art23rockpile]

Originally Posted by northshore

When I road Whiting last Thursday the rangers were out everywhere handing out tickets. They were also hovering about in helicopters making sure everyone was out by dusk.

Oh boy! Our tax dollars at work.

Originally Posted by Von-Diggity

On noes! That mountain biker is ruining that charred wilderness. How dare he! Can't he see that his is doing irrevocable damage to the ecosystem!

And disturbing the wildlife! The hills will be ruint by those 2.5" tire marks.

Originally Posted by ODB

Regardless of when this pic was snapped, you're not helping matters the least for MTBers by posting (re-posting? ) it. Think about it.

Absolutely. If you're willing to accept the (possible) consequences, ride it... but don't advertise it!

[ODB]

Absolutely. If you're willing to accept the (possible) consequences, ride it... but don't advertise it! [/quote]

For the record, what i was trying to say was that Kevinator was not doing any good by re-posting the (apparently old) photo. Poachers are gonna poach. There's no constructive purpose in calling further attention to the activity ... unless you just want to feed your sense of righteous indignation.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by jasonmason

My bad, it's 27 days (opening 11/9) for Main Divide and Motorway. Heaven forbid you have to go ride somewhere else and give the trail a little while longer to recover. When's the last time you had to give up riding it?

You seriously think Santiago and the Luge are going to be closed forever? With as intense as that fire was, give it a little rest and quit thinking just about yourself.

-edit: even if it's not recent doesn't make it any better. If it's closed for fire, respect it. I don't agree with a lot of the closures that go on in the various parks around here, but fire damage is a little different than a land manager or head ranger's whim.

What exactly do you think people on bicycles are going to do that bulldozers and construction vehicles haven't already done for the last year up there? Heck, up until 8-9 years ago bulldozers used to plow STT 15 feet wide every year. I'm just trying to understand what you think bicycles are going to do to a plowed fire road?

[Zippo]

Originally Posted by Rivet

What exactly do you think people on bicycles are going to do that bulldozers and construction vehicles haven't already done for the last year up there? Heck, up until 8-9 years ago bulldozers used to plow STT 15 feet wide every year. I'm just trying to understand what you think bicycles are going to do to a plowed fire road?

That's not really the point here. The point is that the area has been deemed off-limits, and we as responsible adults - be it hikers or mountain bikers - need to respect that. If we're seen as a bunch of lawless, ignorant, abrasive and aggressive hooligans, then it's pretty easy to see how the privilege of riding certain areas could be rescinded.

[art23rockpile]

Originally Posted by ODB

Regardless of when this pic was snapped, you're not helping matters the least for MTBers by posting (re-posting? ) it. Think about it.

Originally Posted by ODB

For the record, what i was trying to say was that Kevinator was not doing any good by re-posting the (apparently old) photo. Poachers are gonna poach. There's no constructive purpose in calling further attention to the activity ... unless you just want to feed your sense of righteous indignation.

Yes, I agree!

[tkblazer]

DOH, thats me~!

[davidB]

I can tell you who it's not.
<----
hopefully this fall i'm able to ride any trail in the OC besides the loop or santiago oaks for the first time

Originally Posted by kevinator

It was off STR, today.

who uploaded it?

[dirtyjeff]

Originally Posted by Rivet

What exactly do you think people on bicycles are going to do that bulldozers and construction vehicles haven't already done for the last year up there? Heck, up until 8-9 years ago bulldozers used to plow STT 15 feet wide every year. I'm just trying to understand what you think bicycles are going to do to a plowed fire road?

On the fire roads ? RUTS. . . On the Singletrack (the LUGE) It's more about keeping the crowds away from an area that has already been destroyed. Try to see the big picture, we all want to ride it.Check this thread out after the rainy season, maybe a differant point of view. It's a necessary evil (not a reprimand,just trying to get people to see the other side of things)

[nekit]

btw the fire was fully contained on Nov 9 and aforementioned order did not come into effect until Nov 20. Is it possible that this rider was up there before the 20th?

Not sure what it adds to the discussion except $0.02

[jasonmason]

Originally Posted by Rivet

What exactly do you think people on bicycles are going to do that bulldozers and construction vehicles haven't already done for the last year up there? Heck, up until 8-9 years ago bulldozers used to plow STT 15 feet wide every year. I'm just trying to understand what you think bicycles are going to do to a plowed fire road?

It's not a matter of what bikes are going to a fire road, because in all actuality they're not going to do very much, if anything. Where they will cause further damage and erosion is on freshly burned and eroded singletrack. Much of what helps hold that singletrack together year after year along the Luge (where the picture was taken) has been burned, and as such needs time to recover before getting the same amount of traffic as it had in the past.

In the bigger picture though, and it has been mentioned above, is that we need to respect these closures because they're the best way for us to keep these trails open in the future. If the forest service says that they need a year to physically recover and members of our own community are out there within weeks, what sort of example does that set for them when dealing with us? Quite simply, that we're not willing to meet half way. Which, when we do have to sit down to the bargaining table in the future, doesn't give us a whole lot of credence in their eyes.

This closure wasn't some plot to kick us out of established trails - if it was, the forest service wouldn't have ok'd trail work to restore the trail while it has been closed. It's been closed because the ecosystem needs time to recuperate after a devastating fire. Did bulldozers and backhoes tear it up? Of course they did, but it was out of necessity to stop a raging forest fire, not because the forest service felt like sticking it to a group of mountian bikers. Their work was triage - they had to do the best thing possible at the moment to stop a catastrophic fire. In doing so it damaged some of the trails we've ridden for years, but do any of us think it would have been better had they just let it burn?

Quite simply, like it or not, that picture is a reflection of us all. Pictures of mountain bikers respecting the closure don't catch the eye of those making the closure, but pictures of those that fail to respect it do. The vast majority of us do see it that way, and it pisses me off to have one irresponsible asshole misrepresent me.

Originally Posted by ODB

For the record, what i was trying to say was that Kevinator was not doing any good by re-posting the (apparently old) photo. Poachers are gonna poach. There's no constructive purpose in calling further attention to the activity ... unless you just want to feed your sense of righteous indignation.

Touche.

It just gets under my skin a bit. If I overstepped a bit, well, i apologize. I want them open just as bad as everybody else does.

[Schecky]

Originally Posted by Zippo

That's not really the point here. The point is that the area has been deemed off-limits, and we as responsible adults - be it hikers or mountain bikers - need to respect that. If we're seen as a bunch of lawless, ignorant, abrasive and aggressive hooligans, then it's pretty easy to see how the privilege of riding certain areas could be rescinded.

But, if it's only deemed off-limits for some.....
I am not at all condoning poaching an area closed for rehabilitation, but I also will not condone some to have privileged access while others do not. It should be applied equally.
For Ex: Has testing work on the proposed tunnel been halted?
"All pigs are equal but some are more equal than others"

Then there is the issue of cameras in wilderness/forest areas.....
"There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time."

[bighit8]

nevermind

[kevinator]

Whether any of you like these rules or not, I couldn't care less. The fact is, this is managed land with certain conditions that apply for usage. And different conditions for when it's off-limits. Period. You can whine and bitch all day long (and have plenty of company on this board) about how rules don't apply, or never did, to you or the people you ride with. And some will laugh, or get angry and point fingers when you get that floppin' ticket. Whatever.
What does piss me off are the constant reminders, that while most of us respect the closure, there's still people acting as if it never happened - and I'm not even referring to the old pic I posted. That was the first time I had actually seen someone post a photo like this and was blown away considering how much of a hot topic this has been in the past 11 months.

Rant off.