New Trail Approved in the San Gabriels

[KBL]

Count me in as stoked! This is one of my favorite riding spots...anywhere.

Since it's been stipulated that only existing materials can be used to build the trail, I don't see where this new route will create any sort of degradation to the landscape. This permit is for a new route that snakes its way through a field of boulders and sandy terrain near the summit of a waterless peak. If the new route were near a stream, built on fragile, soft ground, or was to be constructed with concrete and 2x4's it would be a different story.

Attracting more riders to the high country could take some of the pressure off of the front country trails in the San Gabriels. If you've ridden Chantry or Mt. Lowe on a weekend, you know what I'm talking about. I'm happy to pull over for hikers or equestrians (or the mule train in Chantry) but it gets old riding a few hundred yards and pulling off the trail once again...

Any rider savvy and dedicated enough to make the trip clear to Chilao is also going to be dedicated to good trail stewardship. This new route is not a shuttle route...you'll have to be able to climb at altitude before you get to enjoy the Rock and Rail trail or the Mt. Hillyer trail.

To see what a "by mountain bikers, for mountain bikers" trail looks like, take the short road trip to Gooseberry Mesa some time. Gooseberry's trail are world-class, loads of fun, very challenging, and extremely low impact.

Kanga, Mr. Pres, if you need any kiosk parts welded, lemmie know. I can't take the welding machine to the mountains, but it's no problem to weld the stuff at home and transport it to the site. I can TIG weld steel, stainless steel, and aluminum.

[1080P]

Count me in as not Stoked... the problem being location, location, location. Huge waste of money and resources building something too far out in the sticks, to be used by too few, driving too far, while we are a country at war over petroleum oil to feed our gluttonous needs, while polluting our air even more. You can't ride it in a day unless you are willing to do 50 miles round trip from the 2 and the 210, plus gas just to get there.
Heck, I'm semi retired, and it's minimum of 6 hours burned doing a ride up there, port to port, from my house.

Kind of reminds me of the time I invested helping El Pres and Kanga build a pump track out in Antelope Valley on some private property. It's way too far out there, no one has a key to the lock except El Pres, and the only time anyone goes out there is if they are on the way to ride somewhere else, or coming back from riding somewhere else, and then time is always an issue, finding the time. The losses in time on the front end and the drive home make it impractical, plus it's hotter than blazes out there in the desert, over 100 , from May to October in most years, who wants to ride in that?

And the worst thing is... it's built on sand. Kind of a half baked idea, doesn't matter if you build a track or a castle on sand, the results are the same.

The proposed area is the opposite weather wise, it will be covered in snow at 6,000 feet with the first snows, plus, in the event that someone gets hurt riding up there (it's inevitable when you build trails that challenge your skills) the helicopter ride out off of Mt Hillyer is as expensive as it gets. Do they send you to Lancaster or Pasedena? How good are the medical facilities and quality of doctors there?



BTW, I think it's only fair that readers here know that I was a General Contractor, so I've graded and built plenty of ribbon walkway, patio, driveway, as well as tons of structured buildings after the 1994 Northridge Earthquake.

With all the shaking going on lately, I got a feeling I may get really busy again real soon.

As for CORBA getting into Professional Fee Based Trail Building... It's my understanding that cities, as well as Federal property needs to solicit bids to get work done on property, and that it pays prevailing wage rates, and that everyone is entitled to bid on the blue printed plans.

The way CORBA is going about getting their trail building work has me scratching my head as being monopolistic, as well as being anti 501 (c) (3)... Anyone with a C-12 Earth moving or a C-27 Landscaping Contractors license or a General "B" license should have the right to bid on the work offered up to provide a competitive price to the City or the Forest Service for the property improvement being provided.

I've given this a lot of thought, for me, it doesn't work.

El Pres and Kanga, I love riding with you guys, you are the best and most skilled riders that I know and ride with, and I know you've busted ass to get this thing on the project list, but in my experience, this one is not a good project for your first professional trail building adventure.

Doing the Glendale project as a first would be better, to get more experience, while still being local, under your belt, instead of running into problems up in the north end of Angeles National Forest where cell phone service is non existent. A lot of time and labor days would be wasted if something unexpected comes up while working up in the Forest.

Remember trying to start work up at the pump track with 5 of us waiting around for 3 hours each for the heavy equipment to show up, the Toro Dingo 525? You can't afford those kinds of mistakes with people on payroll and build under cost or for a fee, plus we had cell phone service out in Antelope Valley.

I'm posting this to make people think, and to encourage open discussion and debate. Personal attack is unacceptable. I also want to encourage people to correct me if indeed I am wrong on the facts and points I've made above, as I believe them to be 100 % accurate.

If I am wrong, I will man up and be the first to apologize. Life is full of hurdles and challenges, if this gets pulled off and built successfully, I'll be the first to hear from some folks here that said "I told you so" and rightfully so.

[dstepper]

Randy you just don't give up do you. All valid negative points, so what. I am more than tried of you and your preaching. I for one hope the mods ban you again.

Dean

[airgabe]

Randy get a life. I do not know you personally, but if you choose to preach atleast be part of the solution!!!

1. All native flora and Fauna will not be impacted.
2. All geological features will not be altered, just adjusted
3. No harm will be done to native species in the area.
4. Improved trail maintance for all the existing trails.
5. The expert lines are optional and improved access for hikers to the Summit without MTBer interference.
6. Less environmental impact on the more sensitive trails near the Foothills.
7. Increased access to our National Forrest and a cooperative relationship with our vested partners in the wildlife..

I could go on for ever,but hopefully you get the point. I hope to see you repairing and maintaining the trails you ride one of these days. Unlike you I do appreciate alll the hard work and effort of Corba,IMBA, and numerous other entities have contributed to a new trail rather than a closure...Thank you once again Hans and Steve!!!

Originally Posted by dstepper

Randy you just don't give up do you. All valid negative points, so what. I am more than tried of you and your preaching. I for one hope the mods ban you again.

Dean

[JoeTruth]

I couldn't disagree with you more, Randy. I think this project is much needed and well over due. I don't understand your motive to constantly play a devils advocate and be so pessimistic. It's obvious you enjoy debating but I'd suggest you pick your battles wisely. Everything has a risk factor and this is a risk some people are willing to take. If that was the case then none of us should be riding our mountain bikes. Just that alone is risky. So what if we can't ride it 4-5 months out of the year, big deal! People up in Canada spend countless number of hours building trails and legal stunts that can only be ridden 6-8 months out of the year. That doesn't seem to stop them and neither should it us.

What's most troubling to me is your ability to alienate and piss-off lots of good folks here. You don't always have to challenge everyone and everything just for the sake of a good debate. I think I get it though. You said "With all the shaking going on lately, I got a feeling I may get really busy again real soon." That pretty much sums-up your negative outlook. I'm not saying that's not going to be the case and we shouldn't be prepared (after all, we live in Southern California) but I'm sure not going to dwell on it. Very bad vibes, man!

In conclusion, it's taken me all my life to understand that it is not necessary to understand everything or everyone. This certainly applies most to you.

I'm done and will not engage more.

Live and let live.

Originally Posted by 1080P

Count me in as not Stoked... With all the shaking going on lately, I got a feeling I may get really busy again real soon.

[roach]

Since no one here has answers to (or is willing to discuss) the important questions I posted, I found out for myself.

I contacted the Forest Service. Here’s the truth:
1) "proper studies” (mainly a Biological Assessment) have not yet been conducted (Forest Service staff will conduct the studies).
2) Only the vague “proposal” was accepted.
3) A Categorical Exemption (the environmental document that officially approves the project) is pending approval once the “proper studies” are complete.
4) Copies of the studies will be available upon request once completed.
5) Public Comments were not solicited.

Three other great points:
1) "Machinery and Fuel” were not part of the proposal.
2) There is no purpose and need for this proposal. I asked, WHY? What’s the purpose of this project? Answer, “that’s a good question we’ll look into it.”
3)They were not aware of the ridiculous $86grand price tag.
4)The forest service already has a trail crew and trail cutting equipment/machinery.

This is truly "classic".

CORBA may have clout, but is it necessary to mislead the public? Granted their website uses the word “proposal”, but it is certainly misleading. Thankfully, this dumb idea is not set in stone.

[G-Ride]

Originally Posted by roach

Since no one here has answers to (or is willing to discuss) the important questions I posted, I found out for myself....

I will leave the particulars alone and let those in the know answer them, but I have a question for those opposed to this: why are you so bitter? What gives you that sense of entitlement? Because you ride there often? I am always in favor of open discussion and debating and understanding all sides of a given issue, but I have to admit that the only opposing arguments I see are filled with antagonizing, biased, almost bitter indignance towards freeriding and, as someone has put it, "downhill shuttle monkeys". What is also surprising is that everyone in favor of this has been realistic, polite, and open, while those opposed have been nothing but alarmist, rude, and bitter. Your headline reads “Freeriding is neither”. What’s up with that? I’m guessing you probably lack the skills to do many of the things freeriders do, so since you don’t understand it, it’s bad right? Healthy debate and humorous jabs are one thing, divisiveness and hostile diatribe is another.

Edit: I took the liberty of searching through your posts. Suspicion confirmed. No real contribution to the site, just mostly negative attacks, with an obvious hatred towards freeriders, full of stereotypes and crybaby whining. Freeriders are not the reason why you lost your job or why your daddy doesn't love you anymore. Get a therapist and get over it.

[Upchuck]

I just wanted to thank Kanga, El Pres, CORBA, IMBA, Bikes Belong, ANF and all other entities, persons and clubs who have put the time into this project to make it possible.

There will always be detractors to any project that has the potential to affect the greater good. Sometimes their perspective helps us to see things we hadn't considered. And sometimes their negativity only helps to harden our resolve.

Last year I had the opportunity to experience the Whistler trail system. It was a real eye-opener to see what a well-organized mountain bike community can accomplish when it takes the time to do the research and comes to the table with an intelligent plan.

I'm betting that those who are against this type of trail have never witnessed the beauty of the trails up in Whistler, Tahoe, or Gooseberry Mesa. Otherwise they'd still be wearing the grin on their collective faces from the last time they rode.

Living way up in Ventura County, I'm a relative outsider in the STR community. I've only met a few of you over the last couple of years. Most of you probably don't know me other than from my occasional posts, though I recognize several of you out at races (Hurkey, Keyesville, Mt SAC) and trails(Reseda, STT, Luge). The strength and community of the STR family always amazes me. Keep up the good work!

[1080P]

Originally Posted by roach

Since no one here has answers to (or is willing to discuss) the important questions I posted, I found out for myself.

I contacted the Forest Service. Here’s the truth:
1) "proper studies” (mainly a Biological Assessment) have not yet been conducted (Forest Service staff will conduct the studies).
2) Only the vague “proposal” was accepted.
3) A Categorical Exemption (the environmental document that officially approves the project) is pending approval once the “proper studies” are complete.
4) Copies of the studies will be available upon request once completed.
5) Public Comments were not solicited.

Three other great points:
1) "Machinery and Fuel” were not part of the proposal.
2) There is no purpose and need for this proposal. I asked, WHY? What’s the purpose of this project? Answer, “that’s a good question we’ll look into it.”
3)They were not aware of the ridiculous $86grand price tag.
4)The forest service already has a trail crew and trail cutting equipment/machinery.

This is truly "classic".

CORBA may have clout, but is it necessary to mislead the public? Granted their website uses the word “proposal”, but it is certainly misleading. Thankfully, this dumb idea is not set in stone.

???

[bighit8]

Ya see here is the thing. We as Humans think we a destroying the planet. Kinda arrogant if you ask me.The only real thing we are destroying is are way of life. To think we are gonna destroy a PLANET is well.........
Dont get me wrong I am all for the environment, but really lets look at the whole picture. Black Mustard is an invasive plant, yet it dominates most of the hills in Cali.I never see any post about banning Mustard grass.Im just trying to say, a few obstacles on the trail is not gonna effect it as much as say: extending the 241 toll road.

[davidB]

a PM i got about a month ago is starting to make sense now about str's resident pessimist


anywho, thanks to everyone who's planning/building this trail.

[KBL]

I read a quote by Jesse Ventura to the effect that "no sooner do you try to do something than people will line up around the block to kick your ass about it."

I'm sure I've missed some words, but the point is still the point.

Sure, there are questions raised about whether or not Chilao/Hillyer is the best place for a new route. Since the choices are not cut and dried, would it be best to sit on our hands and do nothing?

Sure it's a long way to drive. Carpool. Get a car that uses less fuel. Pedal up to the trailhead from the city. Every time I've ridden Chilao it has been a day trip. I typically don't have time for an overnight stay. It's a long day, but well worth the trouble. When I don't have time for Chilao, the Fullerton Loop, Chantry Flat, Mt. Lowe, and Turnbull Canyon are my alternate haunts.

Sure it's expensive, and no, I don't have 85 grand in my back pocket to shell out for this. Hopefully, volunteer labor and donated materials can make up any deficits standing in the way. I hope that any money raised or allocated will be spent frugally and scrupulously by those who are entrusted with it.

1080p, it's evident you had a bad experience in the past with building a track. The same sort of logistical problems could happen again...and then again everything could go better this time around. You also mentioned a project in Glendale which I'm unfamiliar with. I am curious about both riding in Glendale, and with the proposed Glendale project. Does the mountain bike community have to choose between the two projects? Why not do both? I assume that Glendale locals will benefit greatly from that one, but those who have never ridden there won't know what they're missing. I believe that Chilao is better known and a project there could benefit more riders who hail from a number of SoCal cities.

Mountain biking has enough enemies as it is. It would be sad to have to add "ourselves" to our list of foes.

I am not trying to start an E-war. I have a feeling that if we were all sitting around a trailhead next to our bikes we could have a constructive, positive discussion that would end on a good note. Here's hoping.

[El Chapulin Colorado]

I have been a member of this forum for about 10 minutes and all I know, as a fact, is that 1080P and Roach need to find a date and ditch their bikes.

The peace and happiness that we all find in this sport has not reached you and never will. We have enough user groups debating issues with mountain bikers to waste our time and have to argue with two guys, who obviously, don't get it, and never will.

I applaud the efforts of Corba and all other organizations that are involved with this project, it is about time that our voices are heard. We are all learning from your experience on this project and we support your efforts. Not too many of us roll up our sleeves and put time on the trails volunteering like you guys. Keep it up !!

Have you ever seen a Roach on high definition (1080P) ??

[roach]

Originally Posted by G-Ride

I will leave the particulars alone and let those in the know answer them...Why are you so bitter? What gives you that sense of entitlement? Because you ride there often? ... Your headline reads “Freeriding is neither”. What’s up with that? I’m guessing you probably lack the skills to do many of the things freeriders do, so since you don’t understand it, it’s bad right? Healthy debate and humorous jabs are one thing, divisiveness and hostile diatribe is another.

Edit: I took the liberty of searching through your posts. Suspicion confirmed. No real contribution to the site, just mostly negative attacks, with an obvious hatred towards freeriders, full of stereotypes and crybaby whining. Freeriders are not the reason why you lost your job or why your daddy doesn't love you anymore. Get a therapist and get over it.

Use whatever excuse necessary to avoid the issue. Keep praying you’ll have ladders and drops to ride in SoCal (they already exist in pseudo riding areas). There’s alot of brainless attitudes here, i.e. “I don’t care, just let me ride a ladder bridge like I see on TV”! This idea sucks. No need for me to reiterate why.

Notice how nobody is stepping up and saying my facts are incorrect? Don’t tell me it’s just because I’m a sarcastic POS. The issues I bring up aren’t legitimate? I’ll give the STR site some time (I know most people don’t sit around checking this site every day). Somebody must be thinking, wait a minute, it’s not approved yet? What’s all the celebration about? It’s all true, call the Forest Service yourself. This proposal is a SCAM on top of a BAD IDEA. The CORBA guys like to boast how much trouble they’ve gone through to get this approved. Well, it’s not approved and the “proper studies” have not been done. Who really benefits from this $86grand? Soliciting donations prior to approval?Just keep an eye out. Just because you love CORBA doesn’t mean somebody there isn’t a crook.

I know a lot of kids who are into freeriding. Sure I heckle them, but isn’t heckling a major part of participating in group mtb rides? The sane riders heckle me back and the brainless ones get pissed [sorry, this is off topic]. - Build the freeride trails in Glendale. That place is a toilet. The San Gabriels, however, are epic. Keep your machinery and full-face out of the Gabes. It’s f*in sweet up there!