MR: Santiago Oaks Trails Assessment

[granny ring]

The early plan regarding trails at Oaks is a scary proposition. Please go to the OC Parks website and give your input and comments regarding the trail plan from BellFree Contractors.
In a nutshell their recommendation is that no trail should be over a 15% grade and 10% is optimum. For reference Harding is 7-9%.

WWW.OCPARKS.COM

[mtnbikej]

Huge turnout tonight.....standing room only. Lots of mtn bikers.

Roger Bell, who did the trail assessment addressed the group this evening. Seems as though he is not too fond of our trails at Santiago Oaks.....he kept stating that everything was too steep........Well, ya know what...that is what makes the Oaks the Oaks. He wants to turn all the trails that will remain open to 10 - 15% grade.

He did takes questions from the audience, but his answers were not real clear. Then again, I was waaaaaay out back and could barely hear. NOTE TO ROGER BELL: When you have a microphone you are talking into, turn it on and turn it up. Only about half the room could hear what he had to say.

Anyway, this meeting probably could have been better. None of what anybody talked about was recorded. That is right, no one from the Parks was taking notes.

So please everyone......fill out this form and email to the address that is listed on it. We need to be heard, and unfortunately it has to be via email.....retarded, I know.

Sanitago Oaks Trails Assessment Comment Form

[KeepsWhatHappens]

Originally Posted by mtnbikej

So please everyone......fill out this form and email to the address that is listed on it. We need to be heard, and unfortunately it has to be via email.....retarded, I know.

Sanitago Oaks Trails Assessment Comment Form

Nothing wrong with email. You don't have to be there in person to have your opinions heard. I sent in a comment form via email this morning as got two personal responses from county staffers to my email.

Please take the time and fill out the form and email, fax or mail it in as J suggested.

KeepsWhatHappens

[Myspeedbuggie]

Thank you everyone who was there!!
We need to stop this guy...
Thank you Cowgirl, you where great up there.

Rob
O.P.A. MTn biker

[Waldo]

Bell's recommendations seem based on two primary criteria:
1 - A trail builder's perspective on what's sustainable from a construction standpoint
2 - A belief that a smooth, simple trail is a safe trail.

He rejected anything steeper than 10% grade, 15% max (I wished I'd asked the distance over which those are limits). He repeatedly used phrases like "too steep," "overly steep," "way too steep," "not a place to hike," and "you could get hurt." (The parks people may not have been taking official notes tonight, but we were!)

He rejected the suggestion that routing a trail down a rocky, erosion-resistant slope might be a good idea. (he must hate places like Moab and Sedona!)

His opinion of the Mountain Goat trail could be described as dismissive, saying it was 'all overly steep," and suggesting a complete revision/re-route.

He said the Oak Trail, aka Three B's, "couldn't be fixed." Funny - I didn't know it was broken!

He presented no empirical data to back up his recommendations. There have been no studies of traffic volume, type, or patterns in the park, and apparently no considerations of the possible safety issues of forcing dissimilar traffic to mix on fewer and simplified (ie: faster) trails. (questions on these topics were generally redirected to park representatives, who have few specific answers so far). And there have been no intermediate steps toward trail management or maintenance, though one of the park representatives did express a possibility of allowing volunteers to do some work. Bell was supportive of the idea but noted that maintenance it could "reduce but not stop" trail erosion.

Bell may well have some valid points regarding water flow and erosion, but if a decision is made based exclusively on his recommendations, it will be a travesty. As a professional trail builder, he has a financial interest in recommending as much work as possible.

This was presented as an initial hearing in the process. The parks people suggested this would be the start of a 3 week comment period, SO GET THOSE LETTERS AND EMAIL IN, PLEASE! Within 4-6 weeks, they expect to have an interim operations plan, followed by...well, we don't really know what at this point.

Thanks to everyone who made their presence and concerns known, either in person or via phone & email. Keep it up!

[g-dub]

Wow. I got the impression that the OC Parks bureaucracy & Mr. Bell were not expecting the entusiasm for steep trails from the horsey people. The guy definitely had a hiker-oriented mindset. Actually, even more than that he has that special kind of bureaucratic mindset that gave the world Soviet farm policy. The guy could not get his head around the fact that the local folks had arrived at a set of trails that they really liked. On their own, without any government help! Noooooo!!!!!! Can't be!!!!!

He insisted that we didn't have any understanding of the erosive potential of the current trails. Um...the trails are called "Waterfall" and "Chutes" for a reason. Yes, the erosive potential of the trails is understood by all, and has been for decades. And the trails have survived because of the care and concern shown by free people, without government coercion. Nooooo!!!!

Best quote of the night: "There won't need to be any blasting on this particular trail." The look Cowgirl gave the guy on that one was classic!

[Cowgirl]

Thank you so much to everyone out there showing your support to save our trails...it was a wonderful sight seeing everyone there for the same reason. No arguing just there to prove our point!

I stayed a while after the meeting and got to know the new Ranger Jim pretty good...I think you will all like him...be forwarned...he has a funny sarcastic nature about him so he will make jokes about using the Mule...he is just kidding!

I also met for a long time with Linda Mayer (park supervisor) and continually asked her what we need to do to get the trails re-opened. She mentioned she wanted to go out personally and check the trails out that I am urging to be reopened (all the Barham Ranch Trails that were closed after the fire)...I will try and get her and the new Ranger out there as soon as possible and see what we can do...I am going to push that if we trail users go out and maintain the trails with SHARE then we should get to ride them again...tonite she didn't seem opposed to that...so we shall see where it goes.

I have to admit I was biting a big hole in my cheek tonite during Mr. Bell's entire presentation. I had lots of comments to make but mark my word it will be sent off to the County in the next few days and I will post it all for you to see.....

It was apparent to me the minute Mr. Bell stood up to speak as to why he feels our trails are too steep and I won't go there but what I do have to say is that he continually reminded us that he had been building trails for 37 years....but my point is Mountain Biking has only been around for about 19 years....he needs to get up to speed with what the riders want! If I want flat 10% grade I can find that riding the river bed....geez I don't even ride stuff that flat going thru Santiago Canyon on my road bike.

I can appreciate his comments regarding trail errosion and I think that with proper maintenence and re-directing some of the water this can be fixed with out costing the County a dime.

Look forward to seeing everyone's comments and seeing you all at the next meeting...I will keep you updated if I get any news at all!

And Thanks Again for all the people who made it tonite and to all of you that are sending off your comments to the county....they are listening ! And what a great feeling you will all have knowing that you saved your park after this is all over and your riding down the "steep" trails!

[maxwell]

First off, thanks to all of you that were able to go to the meeting.

Working nights makes it hard for me to get to them.

Waldo, I hope you don't mind, but I found your post to be very informitive. I included it in my e-mail.

Here is the e-mail that I sent to the County;

I have been riding mountain bikes, and hiking at Oaks for the last 10 years.
Durring that time, I have also spent countless hours helping to maintain the trails in the Park.
I am a proud member of SHARE http://www.sharemtb.com/ and was one of the first to donate time and help patrol the park after the Windy Ridge fire.

It is very disturbing to me to hear what Rodger Bell has pland for OUR park.

This was posted on one of our local mountain biking forums;

Bell's recommendations seem based on two primary criteria:
1 - A trail builder's perspective on what's sustainable from a construction standpoint
2 - A belief that a smooth, simple trail is a safe trail.

He rejected anything steeper than 10% grade, 15% max (I wished I'd asked the distance over which those are limits). He repeatedly used phrases like "too steep," "overly steep," "way too steep," "not a place to hike," and "you could get hurt." (The parks people may not have been taking official notes tonight, but we were!)

He rejected the suggestion that routing a trail down a rocky, erosion-resistant slope might be a good idea. (he must hate places like Moab and Sedona!)

His opinion of the Mountain Goat trail could be described as dismissive, saying it was 'all overly steep," and suggesting a complete revision/re-route.

He said the Oak Trail, aka Three B's, "couldn't be fixed." Funny - I didn't know it was broken!

He presented no empirical data to back up his recommendations. There have been no studies of traffic volume, type, or patterns in the park, and apparently no considerations of the possible safety issues of forcing dissimilar traffic to mix on fewer and simplified (ie: faster) trails. (questions on these topics were generally redirected to park representatives, who have few specific answers so far). And there have been no intermediate steps toward trail management or maintenance, though one of the park representatives did express a possibility of allowing volunteers to do some work. Bell was supportive of the idea but noted that maintenance it could "reduce but not stop" trail erosion.

Bell may well have some valid points regarding water flow and erosion, but if a decision is made based exclusively on his recommendations, it will be a travesty. As a professional trail builder, he has a financial interest in recommending as much work as possible.


I really hope that the County will listen to the people who use, and take care of the Park, before distroying the trails that give the Park it's natural appeal.

Thank you for your time,

Darin L. Maxwell


I really hope anyone that cares about this park (or our other local parks for that matter) will take the time and send something in.

[1x1clyde]

Nicely written Darin!
I tried to make it back into Orange after dinner for the meeting but daddy duties called and I spent time with my daughter.
Thanks to all that represented us at the meeting!

[duke777]

Humm....sounds like the only way to "fix" the "problem" at oaks is simple bulldoze the whole place flat and build some over priced houses that no one can afford. Someone should of ask "how much is in it for you?"

Mount everest is too high so let's bulldoze it down too! I always wanted to climb it....so if they can some how "fix" it to <2000 feet and move it to fullerton loop so I can ride to the top every Thursday night. Oh don't forget the 10% grading too.

[ODB]

Originally Posted by mtnbikej

None of what anybody talked about was recorded. That is right, no one from the Parks was taking notes.

This is telling, and depressing.

[bloodhead]

First of all, thanks for your efforts Cowgirl, we all appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

I also met for a long time with Linda Mayer (park supervisor) and continually asked her what we need to do to get the trails re-opened. She mentioned she wanted to go out personally and check the trails out that I am urging to be reopened (all the Barham Ranch Trails that were closed after the fire)...I will try and get her and the new Ranger out there as soon as possible and see what we can do...I am going to push that if we trail users go out and maintain the trails with SHARE then we should get to ride them again...tonite she didn't seem opposed to that...so we shall see where it goes.

From what I heard in the back, Keith got a commitment to let SHARE / volunteers do work in the park, right? Hopefully we can convince them that we can maintain the existing trails in a sustainable way with sweat equity rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars in expensive professional trail building.

I find it odd that park users weren't asked to contribute to the trail assesment while it was occuring, since they have decades of experience with the trails. I think it's laughable that the consultant was sure the trail system was in imminent danger of collapse after 3+ decades of use. The potential for erosion problems certainly went up after the fires, but hopefully it's manageable if we can get clearance to do some preventative maintenance.

[Cowgirl]

Don't look at it this way....send your letters !!! This meeting wasn't to take comments from the users..I know why they designed it that way..so they were not there til 3am..it was to ask questions to Mr. Bell regarding the proposal...they know we will voice our opinions...and now that we have seen and heard what he has to offer...now is the time for your comments in writing and a paper trail is the best way to do it...that way nothing can be misinterpreted or misunderstood...and the representative from Supervisor Campbell's office was sitting across from me and he was writing down notes after each speaker.
Don't be depressed....I was actually more optomistic after the meeting.

Send in your letter!!

Originally Posted by ODB

This is telling, and depressing.

[ODB]