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Cowgirl · 01-22-2008, 11:22 AM

It's official: Just recieved this....

Hi all... Save the date and plan to participate in the public workshop concerning the trails plan for Santiago Oaks Regional Park.

Detailed information will be available shortly on the County's website: WWW.OCPARKS.COM

Please share this announcement as you see fit.

Regards,
Jim Meyer
Executive Director
Trails4All
(Cell) 310-344-9229
(Fax) 562-529-5153
www.trails4all.org/

Here is the link to RSVP:

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/trailhead/13095-santiago-oaks-public-trails-meeting-feb-6th.html

HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL AT THE MEETING TO SAVE THE OAKS!!!!

KeepsWhatHappens · 01-22-2008, 11:23 AM

If you want to have a say on whether trails stay open to mountain bikers you should attend the meeting below.
----------------
This from Jim Meyers at Trails4All:

February 6th 7pm

Save the date and plan to participate in the public workshop concerning the trails plan for Santiago Oaks Regional Park.

Detailed information will be available shortly on the County's website: WWW.OCPARKS.COM

Regards,
Jim Meyer
Executive Director

Trails4All
(Cell) 310-344-9229
(Fax) 562-529-5153
www.trails4all.org/ <http://www.trails4all.org/>

----------------------
KeepsWhatHappens

KeepsWhatHappens · 01-22-2008, 03:23 PM

bump-up for an important cause.

KeepsWhatHappens

bighit8 · 01-22-2008, 03:24 PM

I will be there!

KeepsWhatHappens · 01-22-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bighit8

I will be there!

February 6th is going to be an important date...

9am California Coastal Commission meeting to debate the 241 tollroad extension (and the fate of San Clemente Singletracks) in Oceanside

and

7pm The Santiago Oaks meeting

Hopefully we can make strong showing to help keep our trails open.

Also don't forget....for San Clemente/Stop the Toll Road Movement

Organizing Meeting Monday, January 28th at 7 PM
San Clemente Presbyterian Church
119 Avenida De La Estrella
San Clemente CA 92672

KeepsWhatHappens

Cowgirl · 01-23-2008, 03:45 PM

Well Here is the Proposed BAD NEWS: (from ocparks.com)

FULL report:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...t%20Report.pdf

Map of closures and proposed trails:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...d%20Trails.pdf

I am sick to my stomach after reading this !!!!

Ways to help save the park.....

WE NEED TO SEND LETTERS TO COUNCILMAN BILL CAMPBELL NOW !!! He is our only hope....he is a voted position by us users of the park....he has to listen or he knows he will lose our vote at the next election.

bill.campbell@ocgov.com

Come to the meeting on Feb. 6th and bring your letters and voice your opinion!!!

ODB · 01-23-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

Well Here is the Proposed BAD NEWS: (from ocparks.com)

FULL report:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphics/1-08%20Final%20Draft%20Report.pdf

Map of closures and proposed trails:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...d%20Trails.pdf

I am sick to my stomach after reading this !!!!

Ways to help save the park.....

WE NEED TO SEND LETTERS TO COUNCILMAN BILL CAMPBELL NOW !!! He is our only hope....he is a voted position by us users of the park....he has to listen or he knows he will lose our vote at the next election.

bill.campbell@ocgov.com

Come to the meeting on Feb. 6th and bring your letters and voice your opinion!!!

Am i reading the map incorrectly, or does the Mountain Goat Trail (aka Waterfall) reroute somehow bypass the waterfall? Cripes, that map is depressing. And what's with the proposed bridge over the wash at the bottom of Chutes? That seems like a total waste of resources. EDIT: Holy crap! Just read the full report: $105K to build that friggin' bridge!!! What a f-cking boondoggle.

Cowgirl · 01-23-2008, 04:03 PM

Here is a copy of the letter I just sent to Councilman Bill Campbell. Please feel free to use any of it to help you write your letter to him.

Mr. Bill Campbell;

I just was informed that the report regarding the proposed changes and closures at Santiago Oaks Regional Park were open to the public. I went to ocparks.com and was shocked to see that the report is calling for closures if nearly half the parks current trail system. And then what is going to be kept open is going to be completely re-routed. I have to say I am appauld at this report. It is obvious that BellFree Contractors and Roger Bell are looking to destroy our park and make $445k in the process.

I have been been riding all the proposed closed trails for over 25 years and per the report it states they are eroding and can not be maintained...these trails have not required any maintenence in the history of the park and I would like to see the evidence that these are erroding or dangerous trails with reports from the park showing either incidences of injury or trail work done on them.

I am a daily user of Santiago Oaks Park and with a large group of concerned users we will be present at the Feb. 6th meeting at the park. The OC Register and other papers as well have been contacted regarding this situation. We will not allow our park to be destroyed in this manner and refuse to sit back and let the County make decisions regarding the use of some of the last Open Space in Orange County.

Sincerely,

Sherry Panttaja
Warrior's Society, co-director
Switchback Cyclery, owner

Marshall Willanholly · 01-23-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

Well Here is the Proposed BAD NEWS: (from ocparks.com)

FULL report:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...t%20Report.pdf

Map of closures and proposed trails:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...d%20Trails.pdf

I am sick to my stomach after reading this !!!!

Ways to help save the park.....

WE NEED TO SEND LETTERS TO COUNCILMAN BILL CAMPBELL NOW !!! He is our only hope....he is a voted position by us users of the park....he has to listen or he knows he will lose our vote at the next election.

bill.campbell@ocgov.com

Come to the meeting on Feb. 6th and bring your letters and voice your opinion!!!

Wow. That is sickening for sure. From what I gather reading the Trails4All document is that it will cost close to $450,000 to close and/or re-route (i.e. dumb-down) the most fun trails in the park.

KeepsWhatHappens · 01-23-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

Well Here is the Proposed BAD NEWS: (from ocparks.com)

FULL report:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphics/1-08%20Final%20Draft%20Report.pdf

Map of closures and proposed trails:
http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...d%20Trails.pdf

I am sick to my stomach after reading this !!!!

Ways to help save the park.....

WE NEED TO SEND LETTERS TO COUNCILMAN BILL CAMPBELL NOW !!! He is our only hope....he is a voted position by us users of the park....he has to listen or he knows he will lose our vote at the next election.

bill.campbell@ocgov.com

Come to the meeting on Feb. 6th and bring your letters and voice your opinion!!!

After reaing this and looking at the map I am not really sure WHY they want to do such extensive closing/re-design. Are they flush with money or something?

Playing the devils advocate I do have to admit the trail consultant had some decent points favorable to mountain bikers.

"Mountain bikers want some challenging conditions, such as jump offs and steep downhill trails and equestrians have preference for some routes they have used historically. Enabling and respecting what you can of these desires, you should at the same time begin to reign in excessive conditions and practices that invite resource damage and in a few cases are seriously unsafe."

"(I would not rule out, down the line, consideration of a mountain bike park area with specially built facilities, because this clearly is a hugely popular recreational activity that needs places for the more enthusiastic adherents to strut their stuff—just like skate parks do for that growing sport.)"

"With all of these changes, we highly recommend use of low impact, specialized trail building equipment, such as a small excavator, gas powered jackhammer, motorized wheelbarrows, etc. that, with skillful use, can create a quality trail about 4’ wide. The equipment needs to be strong enough to deal with some scrappy ground on rocky slopes, to cut sufficiently wide, properly drained switchbacks and to move rocks in ways that enable passage and support alignment and drainage, but not sized in ways that lead to overly wide trails.
I would either forego that luxury or, if it is deemed essential, widen to no more that 6’ for some trails. I generally do not like the concept of widening trails to allow access vehicles, which too often seems to be the case for urban interface trails; rather I prefer the approach of fitting access vehicles to optimal trail widths."

"Other Trails to be closed. We agree with all the other trail closures indicated in the field. (SORPs 10, 1B, 1C, 7, 9) The closures are recommended mainly because in all cases it appears that they cannot be effectively realigned. However, we would be willing to take another look if there is strong support to realign and re-open any of these."

Being not nearly as familiar with this park as many other of my peers, would anyone like to post a sample letter that we can all send to rep Campbell?

Thanks,

KeepsWhatHappens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

Here is a copy of the letter I just sent to Councilman Bill Campbell. Please feel free to use any of it to help you write your letter to him.

Mr. Bill Campbell;

I just was informed that the report regarding the proposed changes and closures at Santiago Oaks Regional Park were open to the public. I went to ocparks.com and was shocked to see that the report is calling for closures if nearly half the parks current trail system. And then what is going to be kept open is going to be completely re-routed. I have to say I am appauld at this report. It is obvious that BellFree Contractors and Roger Bell are looking to destroy our park and make $445k in the process.

I have been been riding all the proposed closed trails for over 25 years and per the report it states they are eroding and can not be maintained...these trails have not required any maintenence in the history of the park and I would like to see the evidence that these are erroding or dangerous trails with reports from the park showing either incidences of injury or trail work done on them.

I am a daily user of Santiago Oaks Park and with a large group of concerned users we will be present at the Feb. 6th meeting at the park. The OC Register and other papers as well have been contacted regarding this situation. We will not allow our park to be destroyed in this manner and refuse to sit back and let the County make decisions regarding the use of some of the last Open Space in Orange County.

Sincerely,

Sherry Panttaja
Warrior's Society, co-director
Switchback Cyclery, owner

Dang Sherry...you're a mind reader! I know you're fired up too and a fast typer..no offense but there's some spelling errors and typos in there. And it's Supervisor Campbell.

KeepsWhatHappens

Singletrack Angel · 01-23-2008, 04:25 PM

Thank you Sherry for your work on this and posting the links!

KeepsWhatHappens · 01-23-2008, 04:27 PM

Thanks for the words Sherry...Here's what I just fired off to the paid-off supervisor....

Supervisor Campbell;

I just was informed that the report regarding the proposed changes and closures at Santiago Oaks Regional Park were open to the public. I went to ocparks.com and was shocked to see that the report is calling for closures of nearly half the parks current trail system. And then what is going to be kept open is going to be completely re-aligned. I have to say I am appalled at this report. It is obvious to me that BellFree Contractors and Roger Bell are looking to destroy our park and make $445k in the process.

As an avid mountain biker I have been riding all the proposed closed trails for many years and per the report it states they are eroding and can not be maintained...these trails have not required any maintenance in the history of the park and I would like to see the evidence that these are eroding or dangerous trails with reports from the park showing either incidences of injury or trail work done on them.

I and a large group of concerned mountain bikers will be present at the Feb. 6th meeting at the park. We will not allow our park to be destroyed in this manner and refuse to sit back and let the county make decisions regarding the use of some of the last open space in Orange County.

Sincerely,

John Early
Warriors Society Member
SHARE member

KeepsWhatHappens

JamR · 01-23-2008, 06:01 PM

Wow,

Some of the replies are not going to help any issues here.

If this just becomes a debate of slamming agencies and not accepting a little reality, it's going to make bikers look like a group throwing a tantrum.

Belfree is actually considered one of the premier trail-builders in the country and to start accusing them of simply looking for money and destroying the park is not going to win any credibility for the group.

As much as we like Chutes and enjoy the ride.......it's no secret that it has become a "Chute" (essentially a long rut that channelizes water), and was not done by the land managers. It became that way from use. That being said....much of it is already down to bedrock and probably won't get much worse.

But which user group should have the say here? I did a ride this weekend and a long-time friend of mine who is an accomplished biker and trail-runner, and he commented on this trail. He said it's a great trail to bike, but when he runs it; he has to run up it straddling the trail on each side of the center groove. So who is the trail for?.....just bikers, or all users?

It's a little premature to get so heated over lines on a map when clearly from the map itself; you cannot see the proposed nature of any of the realignments.

As upset as some may be about the bridge at the bottom....that's just a simple fact of life that trails are not supposed to be crossing water-sheds and the bridge is required.

This is nothing new and we have seen bridges go up in Aliso-woods, and Whiting at many crossings that were once fun sections to dip in and out of our bikes; but now have bridges at these crossings. I can probably pull up very similar posts from years ago about the bridge at the end of Coyote Run in Aliso, and on the one-way trail heading into Whiting. Many people were upset at the bridges, but the reality of the requirement finally set in. The bridge is simply a requirement.

I can pretty much guarantee that land managers getting letters like some of the above are not going to take them seriously especially if they start casting disparaging remarks on someone like Roger Bell who was literally building trails in some of the most remote areas of California before many here were born.

Clearly a trail system re-design and re-route like this is going to take a long time, and clearly there will be many many opportunities to be heard and to actually get involved with the re-design. Obviously there will be opportunities for bikers to let the managers know that they want drops, chutes, berms, and very technical features built into the system.

How about getting constructive and get involved with the design instead of going on a bashing campaign.

This just makes our group look uneducated and immature. How would you like it if several hundred trail-runners started a letter campaign about the current condition of Chutes and started blaming bikers for its condition?

I think we need to exercise some constructive thought processes here and take a deep breath before going off-tangent. If the group just starts slamming the managers with letters with anecdotal observations on trail erosion, and the all too often heard "I've been riding here (aka poaching) for years; and starts questioning the credibility of someone who's resume of trail projects is hard to dispute........we will not be taken seriously as a group.

How about just taking the proposed map and start commenting on it trail by trail, and get involved in an effort to make sure that any re-routes that are needed can meet the fun-factor for the group.

How can you actually sit here right now and be so certain that some of the re-routes might not actually end up being more fun than some of the existing trails.

Find away to get involved in the design instead of just getting mad.

The current flurry of angry letters will serve no useful purpose in long run, and if the science behind the decisions actually supports these re-routes; then the anger will just make our group look silly.

The leaders within our mountain biking community need to be level headed, otherwise they can do more harm than good.

Again......any re-routes will probably take months or years; so there is plenty of time to get involved and make suggestions.

Also, if you plan on showing up to public meetings just to be angry and yell, and not listen with an open-mind; and give well-thought and concise suggestions.....you will be no different than the hikers that everyone is complaining about regarding the P.V. issues.

Take a breather people.......and put together some calm thoughts on issue.

Just my .02

Cowgirl · 01-23-2008, 06:09 PM

Not sure if you are aware...but we have been having meetings with all the supervisors of the park and discussing the trails and re-routes and such.....we have been being patient...our meetings started back in July 2007. Now it's time to stand up for our rights...we are not going in to bash....just stand up for our rights at users of the park....this public meeting is being held so that the users once again can discuss the reasons why some should be closed and why some should be re-opened.
We were assured at past meetings that if we gave up some trails we would be granted others....we need to make sure this happens not just sit back and wait til it's too late.

JamR · 01-23-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowgirl

Not sure if you are aware...but we have been having meetings with all the supervisors of the park and discussing the trails and re-routes and such.....we have been being patient...our meetings started back in July 2007. Now it's time to stand up for our rights...we are not going in to bash....just stand up for our rights at users of the park....this public meeting is being held so that the users once again can discuss the reasons why some should be closed and why some should be re-opened.
We were assured at past meetings that if we gave up some trails we would be granted others....we need to make sure this happens not just sit back and wait til it's too late.

I understand the past meetings, but I also understand that meetings and processes from July 2007 to now is not a long time at all in a process that can take years to finalize.

No one is asking to have anyone sit back and just wait....but this is just another opportunity to get involved and now you at least have a proposed map to comment on and make recommendations.

I personally think you crossed a line with your comment about Belfree destroying the park. It was an unnecessary slam on a very professional trail builder and frankly you probably lost some credibility as a leader of the bike community. There will inevitably be a lot of other users who will see the re-design as positive....so who's right? Are you going to get angry at other trail users who may agree with the re-routes and accuse them of supporting the destruction of the park?

I am fairly certain that there are other groups that could garner hundreds of letters stating support for these re-routes and could probably throw in a ton of comments about how bikers destroyed the trails. Do we now just turn this into a war between user groups? You can't just in one breath bash a credible trail contractor, then in the next breath say that you're not going to bash. We need calm leaders to carry the messages to the managers.

All I'm stating here is that the leaders of any community need to be more level-headed about their comments.

The point is that if people start trying to swap resumes with someone like Roger Bell who has earned the right to be considered one of the best.....and make disparaging remarks....they will not win any credibility.

There is still plenty of time to make su

01-22-2008, 11:22 AM	#1 (permalink)
Cowgirl Shut Up and Ride	Feb 6th Santiago Oaks Meeting:Please Attend It's official: Just recieved this.... Hi all... Save the date and plan to participate in the public workshop concerning the trails plan for Santiago Oaks Regional Park. Detailed information will be available shortly on the County's website: WWW.OCPARKS.COM Please share this announcement as you see fit. Regards, Jim Meyer Executive Director Trails4All (Cell) 310-344-9229 (Fax) 562-529-5153 www.trails4all.org/ Here is the link to RSVP: http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/trailhead/13095-santiago-oaks-public-trails-meeting-feb-6th.html HOPE TO SEE YOU ALL AT THE MEETING TO SAVE THE OAKS!!!! Last edited by genusmtbkr5; 01-28-2008 at 10:21 AM. Reason: added link to event thread

01-22-2008, 11:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
KeepsWhatHappens Warriors Society Member	Feb 6th Santiago Oaks Meeting:Please Attend If you want to have a say on whether trails stay open to mountain bikers you should attend the meeting below. ---------------- This from Jim Meyers at Trails4All: February 6th 7pm Save the date and plan to participate in the public workshop concerning the trails plan for Santiago Oaks Regional Park. Detailed information will be available shortly on the County's website: WWW.OCPARKS.COM Regards, Jim Meyer Executive Director Trails4All (Cell) 310-344-9229 (Fax) 562-529-5153 www.trails4all.org/ <http://www.trails4all.org/> ---------------------- KeepsWhatHappens Last edited by genusmtbkr5; 01-23-2008 at 09:15 PM. Reason: Merged with existing thread

01-22-2008, 03:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
bighit8 STR Veteran	I will be there! __________________ singletrack angel: is that a real hole Fred? Mtbnbikefred: Yes,I have stuck all kind of things in it.

01-23-2008, 03:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Cowgirl Shut Up and Ride	Here Is The Report And Map Closures Proposed!!! Well Here is the Proposed BAD NEWS: (from ocparks.com) FULL report: http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...t%20Report.pdf Map of closures and proposed trails: http://www.ocparks.com/uploadgraphic...d%20Trails.pdf I am sick to my stomach after reading this !!!! Ways to help save the park..... WE NEED TO SEND LETTERS TO COUNCILMAN BILL CAMPBELL NOW !!! He is our only hope....he is a voted position by us users of the park....he has to listen or he knows he will lose our vote at the next election. bill.campbell@ocgov.com Come to the meeting on Feb. 6th and bring your letters and voice your opinion!!!

01-23-2008, 04:03 PM	#8 (permalink)
Cowgirl Shut Up and Ride	My Letter To Bill Campbell Here is a copy of the letter I just sent to Councilman Bill Campbell. Please feel free to use any of it to help you write your letter to him. Mr. Bill Campbell; I just was informed that the report regarding the proposed changes and closures at Santiago Oaks Regional Park were open to the public. I went to ocparks.com and was shocked to see that the report is calling for closures if nearly half the parks current trail system. And then what is going to be kept open is going to be completely re-routed. I have to say I am appauld at this report. It is obvious that BellFree Contractors and Roger Bell are looking to destroy our park and make $445k in the process. I have been been riding all the proposed closed trails for over 25 years and per the report it states they are eroding and can not be maintained...these trails have not required any maintenence in the history of the park and I would like to see the evidence that these are erroding or dangerous trails with reports from the park showing either incidences of injury or trail work done on them. I am a daily user of Santiago Oaks Park and with a large group of concerned users we will be present at the Feb. 6th meeting at the park. The OC Register and other papers as well have been contacted regarding this situation. We will not allow our park to be destroyed in this manner and refuse to sit back and let the County make decisions regarding the use of some of the last Open Space in Orange County. Sincerely, Sherry Panttaja Warrior's Society, co-director Switchback Cyclery, owner

01-22-2008, 03:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
KeepsWhatHappens Warriors Society Member	bump-up for an important cause. KeepsWhatHappens

01-23-2008, 04:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
Singletrack Angel Wenches Rule	Thank you Sherry for your work on this and posting the links! __________________ www.talkaboutcuringautism.org "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." - Albert Einstein

01-23-2008, 04:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
KeepsWhatHappens Warriors Society Member	Thanks for the words Sherry...Here's what I just fired off to the paid-off supervisor.... Supervisor Campbell; I just was informed that the report regarding the proposed changes and closures at Santiago Oaks Regional Park were open to the public. I went to ocparks.com and was shocked to see that the report is calling for closures of nearly half the parks current trail system. And then what is going to be kept open is going to be completely re-aligned. I have to say I am appalled at this report. It is obvious to me that BellFree Contractors and Roger Bell are looking to destroy our park and make $445k in the process. As an avid mountain biker I have been riding all the proposed closed trails for many years and per the report it states they are eroding and can not be maintained...these trails have not required any maintenance in the history of the park and I would like to see the evidence that these are eroding or dangerous trails with reports from the park showing either incidences of injury or trail work done on them. I and a large group of concerned mountain bikers will be present at the Feb. 6th meeting at the park. We will not allow our park to be destroyed in this manner and refuse to sit back and let the county make decisions regarding the use of some of the last open space in Orange County. Sincerely, John Early Warriors Society Member SHARE member KeepsWhatHappens

01-23-2008, 06:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
JamR STR Veteran	Wow, Some of the replies are not going to help any issues here. If this just becomes a debate of slamming agencies and not accepting a little reality, it's going to make bikers look like a group throwing a tantrum. Belfree is actually considered one of the premier trail-builders in the country and to start accusing them of simply looking for money and destroying the park is not going to win any credibility for the group. As much as we like Chutes and enjoy the ride.......it's no secret that it has become a "Chute" (essentially a long rut that channelizes water), and was not done by the land managers. It became that way from use. That being said....much of it is already down to bedrock and probably won't get much worse. But which user group should have the say here? I did a ride this weekend and a long-time friend of mine who is an accomplished biker and trail-runner, and he commented on this trail. He said it's a great trail to bike, but when he runs it; he has to run up it straddling the trail on each side of the center groove. So who is the trail for?.....just bikers, or all users? It's a little premature to get so heated over lines on a map when clearly from the map itself; you cannot see the proposed nature of any of the realignments. As upset as some may be about the bridge at the bottom....that's just a simple fact of life that trails are not supposed to be crossing water-sheds and the bridge is required. This is nothing new and we have seen bridges go up in Aliso-woods, and Whiting at many crossings that were once fun sections to dip in and out of our bikes; but now have bridges at these crossings. I can probably pull up very similar posts from years ago about the bridge at the end of Coyote Run in Aliso, and on the one-way trail heading into Whiting. Many people were upset at the bridges, but the reality of the requirement finally set in. The bridge is simply a requirement. I can pretty much guarantee that land managers getting letters like some of the above are not going to take them seriously especially if they start casting disparaging remarks on someone like Roger Bell who was literally building trails in some of the most remote areas of California before many here were born. Clearly a trail system re-design and re-route like this is going to take a long time, and clearly there will be many many opportunities to be heard and to actually get involved with the re-design. Obviously there will be opportunities for bikers to let the managers know that they want drops, chutes, berms, and very technical features built into the system. How about getting constructive and get involved with the design instead of going on a bashing campaign. This just makes our group look uneducated and immature. How would you like it if several hundred trail-runners started a letter campaign about the current condition of Chutes and started blaming bikers for its condition? I think we need to exercise some constructive thought processes here and take a deep breath before going off-tangent. If the group just starts slamming the managers with letters with anecdotal observations on trail erosion, and the all too often heard "I've been riding here (aka poaching) for years; and starts questioning the credibility of someone who's resume of trail projects is hard to dispute........we will not be taken seriously as a group. How about just taking the proposed map and start commenting on it trail by trail, and get involved in an effort to make sure that any re-routes that are needed can meet the fun-factor for the group. How can you actually sit here right now and be so certain that some of the re-routes might not actually end up being more fun than some of the existing trails. Find away to get involved in the design instead of just getting mad. The current flurry of angry letters will serve no useful purpose in long run, and if the science behind the decisions actually supports these re-routes; then the anger will just make our group look silly. The leaders within our mountain biking community need to be level headed, otherwise they can do more harm than good. Again......any re-routes will probably take months or years; so there is plenty of time to get involved and make suggestions. Also, if you plan on showing up to public meetings just to be angry and yell, and not listen with an open-mind; and give well-thought and concise suggestions.....you will be no different than the hikers that everyone is complaining about regarding the P.V. issues. Take a breather people.......and put together some calm thoughts on issue. Just my .02 __________________ See ya on the trails

01-23-2008, 06:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
Cowgirl Shut Up and Ride	Not sure if you are aware...but we have been having meetings with all the supervisors of the park and discussing the trails and re-routes and such.....we have been being patient...our meetings started back in July 2007. Now it's time to stand up for our rights...we are not going in to bash....just stand up for our rights at users of the park....this public meeting is being held so that the users once again can discuss the reasons why some should be closed and why some should be re-opened. We were assured at past meetings that if we gave up some trails we would be granted others....we need to make sure this happens not just sit back and wait til it's too late.

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