Daley Ranch- illegal trails, give me the background.

[justsomeguy]

I don't know what the relationship is between riders and the folks who are responsible for running Daley Ranch so I'm asking here.

• Apparently there's a problem with bootleg trails.
• Apparently the rangers at Daley ranch have been posting fliers about the "problem."

The reason that some random guy from Norcal is asking about these issues is that the City of Escondido employees that created the fliers in question stole my photo for use on the flier.

SO if I push the copyright infringement issues with the city I want to make sure that I don't affect a potentially good relationship between local mtb advocacy folks and the city by getting pissy about them stealing my image.

Please give me the scoop. Thanks.

The flyer in question (culled from the internet) is attached.

[el_d00der1n0]

I don't know if the guys who are in direct contact with the rangers are on STR, but we are maintaining a relationship with them.

How did you find the image? How would the rangers have come by it?

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by el_d00der1n0

I don't know if the guys who are in direct contact with the rangers are on STR, but we are maintaining a relationship with them.

How did you find the image? How would the rangers have come by it?

I saw the image here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=373961

The rangers would have come by my copyrighted image by stripping it from my website, or by someone emailing it to them (it's been a part of some "mountain biking" chain emails), or they could have come by it by googling "mountain bike crash" or they could have scanned it from the book "Cycling's Greatest Misadventures."

How they found the image is irrelevant, from a legal standpoint.

The only relevant fact, from a legal standpoint, is that they used it without permission.

Hopefully the folks that are in direct contact with the rangers can chime in.

Thanks.

[nappyt]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

I saw the image here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=373961

The rangers would have come by my copyrighted image by stripping it from my website, or by someone emailing it to them (it's been a part of some "mountain biking" chain emails), or they could have come by it by googling "mountain bike crash" or they could have scanned it from the book "Cycling's Greatest Misadventures."

How they found the image is irrelevant, from a legal standpoint.

The only relevant fact, from a legal standpoint, is that they used it without permission.

Hopefully the folks that are in direct contact with the rangers can chime in.

Thanks.

did you watermark the image with your name or the name of your company? if not then unless they went to the place you posted the picture online and ignored your copyright notice (do you have one?) then its fair to assume its public domain (or private if your the image owner). i know its pretty easy to google for images and your screwed. the exception is with unlicensed work used for commercial or for-profit purposes.

The fix would be to watermark all your images before you post them. include the information required. also make sure you have a copyright notice for all your work on the site you post your images on. most image hosting sites offer this. i use it with my Flickr account. something like creative commons works well for generic stuff. I use the Founders' Copyright for some of the text I have publish for the classes I teach. sorry your stuff was used without written permission. PacMan had one of his images used without permission on DirtRags website.

At least you know the difference between copyright and trademark. your head and shoulders above many.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by nappyt

did you watermark the image with your name or the name of your company?

That doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by nappyt

if not then unless they went to the place you posted the picture online and ignored your copyright notice (do you have one?) then its fair to assume its public domain

No, you're mistaken.

Originally Posted by nappyt

i know its pretty easy to google for images and your screwed.

Originally Posted by nappyt

the exception is with unlicensed work used for commercial or for-profit purposes.

Again, you're mistaken.

Originally Posted by nappyt

The fix would be to watermark all your images before you post them.

Watermarking images is not required to maintain your copyright.

I'm VERY familiar with the copyright aspects of the situation (same image was used by one of Apple's ad agencies without permission). Here's a simple explanation of those issues:

http://www.photolaw.net/faq.html

________________________________________________

My question is about the potential harm done to mtb advocacy/mtb access/Daley Ranch relations if I decide to push the issue of the illegal use of my image.

Thanks.

[nappyt]

Your correct. I was giving tips that would make someone steal someone else's work if you have your name or business in a watermark in the middle of the picture. sort of like how QBP does on all there images on Jenson and other sites.


Back on track.

I'm not sure what they are calling illegal trails. I know that area has tons of trails that have been around for years but are closed/off limits in the park. One of the trails I did some trail work with the Daley Ranch Trail Work group and SDMBA. So eventually a new/old trail will be opened back up.

Anyone know if they are referencing old closed trails or people going out of bounds and creating new trails?

[TCB]

I’m with the San Diego Mountain Biking Association SDMBA, we are in direct contact with the park and do trail work on a regular basis. I appreciate your concern of maintaining a positive relationship between the park and Mountain Bikers.
I don’t think it would do any damage if you asked the Park to remove your photo.
My advise would be to call the Park and ask who designed the flyer; it could be a Park volunteer who has no concept of copyright law and found the photo on your webpage, if you were to explain to the Rangers that the photo belongs to you, I am sure they would not hesitate to remove the photo.

BTW, I am a commercial Photographer and Vice President of APA/SD and you are absolutely correct, the image belongs to you regardless if there is a copyright notice on the image or not.

[bjammin]

Is that you in the photo? If so, I think the impact skewed your judgment of what matters and what does not. Illegal trail building matters when in can adversely affect the mountain biking community as a whole. Think of your photo being used as flattery. It will prevent the park from being closed to all!

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by bjammin

Is that you in the photo?

No. If someone takes your photo you are not granted the copyright.

Originally Posted by bjammin

If so, I think the impact skewed your judgment of what matters and what does not.

Please explain.

Originally Posted by bjammin

Illegal trail building matters when in can adversely affect the mountain biking community as a whole.

I agree. Maybe you should read the thread over once again.

Originally Posted by bjammin

Think of your photo being used as flattery. It will prevent the park from being closed to all!

Flattery or not, it's an illegal use of a copyrighted image.

Your hyperbole about my photo preventing a park form being closed is pretty ridiculous though.

[TCB]

Originally Posted by bjammin

Is that you in the photo? If so, I think the impact skewed your judgment of what matters and what does not. Illegal trail building matters when in can adversely affect the mountain biking community as a whole. Think of your photo being used as flattery. It will prevent the park from being closed to all!

Personally I would like the Park to remove the photo, I don’t like the way it singles out a particular user group.

[bjammin]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

No. If someone takes your photo you are not granted the copyright.



Please explain.



I agree. Maybe you should read the thread over once again.




Flattery or not, it's an illegal use of a copyrighted image.

Your hyperbole about my photo preventing a park form being closed is pretty ridiculous though.

thank you for correcting me...
happy new year.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by bjammin

thank you for correcting me...
happy new year.

No problem and happy New Year to you too!

p.s. Nice new avatar! (hopefully the guy who owns the copyright doesn't see it!)

[justsomeguy]

More info:

The flier was prepared by Lakes and Open Space Superintendent Tony Smock.

He has promised to take down the flier, but he's "just going to use another picture."

Good luck with the rogue trails down there.

[TCB]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

More info:

The flier was prepared by Lakes and Open Space Superintendent Tony Smock.

He has promised to take down the flier, but he's "just going to use another picture."

Good luck with the rogue trails down there.

Didn’t sound like it ended on a high note.

[Red Hot Sloth]

I'm aware that there are trails in Daley that are "off Limits", but i had no idea that there were new, illegal trails actually being built. Interesting....kinda ballsy actually, by the trail builders(illegal). Do you think its kids who have half a concern and knowledge that its illegal, or would it be someone that is very familiar with the law? I know its a speculative question, but I'm always curious.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by TCB

Didn’t sound like it ended on a high note.

Yes, it sounded like he was still going to use another picture of a mountain biker on the new flier.

Whether he is using a mountain biker to depict the trail builders or to highlight the "dangerous" aspect of the rogue trails is open to interpretation.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by spookydave

who you gonna call???

Dixon Lake 760-839-4680.

By posting the waaambulance pic, are you implying that I am crying about something?

If you are, nothing could be further from the truth. I think the latest use of the picture is funny, in a pretty ironic way.

It's too bad that the fliers had to go up though.

[PacMan]

Wow, what a thread. Umm, no comment.

[TCB]

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Yes, it sounded like he was still going to use another picture of a mountain biker on the new flier.

Whether he is using a mountain biker to depict the trail builders or to highlight the "dangerous" aspect of the rogue trails is open to interpretation.

I guess I'm caught in the middle on this one, on one side I'm on the Board of Advertising Photographer of America (APA) and a long time advocate of Mountain Biking issues in San Diego through SDMBA.
In both associations we always say education is the best tool, hopefully the Ranger or superintendent you talked to has a better understanding of the value of your work and does not see this as a “Mountain Biking” issue but rather an intellectual property rights issue.