Another Can of Worms

[Pain Freak]

No easy answers here.

Thank you for asking our input and I guess you can see you'll get a variety of answers too. Andy's response is what I would agree with as much as I hate Big Brother I also hate selfish people who think only of themselves and the moment. A couple huge fines, that a judge wouldn't find amusing would definately curtail a lot of the poaching. Wavy Gravey losing his bike (even temporarily) got all kinds of press. It's something that has to be done. There are some old time groups out there primarily in the OC who would rather ride an illegal trail, just because it is illegal, most of you know who I'm talking about. You know the ones that say they were here before the land managers and everyone else. What do we do about these kind? Do you think they'd be affected by us? No way, they just laugh when they read these boards which is seldom if at all.
No easy answers, mine is to hit them wher it hurts, fine them and take there wheels for a while.

[OMR]

Even better, Adam was the guy who caught me. A friend and I were riding at Aliso Woods at night several years back just down from top of the world on the ridgeline. We were purposefully staying out of what I thought was Aliso Woods. All of a sudden a voice came out of the darkness... "Step off your bikes"... it was Adam. Took me completely by surprise that we were poaching in Aliso Woods as I thought the ridge line was Laguna Greenbelt and not Aliso Woods. I found out that night that Laguna had given that section over to the county and it was part of Aliso Woods. Adam accompanied us down to the bottom of Mathis where Ranger Tom (personal friend) and the sheriff were waiting... (Tom's response was "Oh Gregg... not you!" We were each given tickets for simple trespass... which ended up costing me in court fees $248. this was not long after Andy had been given his ticket. I was now a convicted poacher! (my younger wilder days)

Here's the point to all this: the ripple throughout the mountain bike community was instantaineous ... those tickets effectively stopped riding in the park at night for that season. I have the distinct feeling that if a couple riders were caught and fined today, that would stop most of the poaching for a while... until people forget and you have to do it again.

Now as a SHARE/OC County Trail Assistant, I try and discourage people from riding the illegal trails and riding in the park after dark. I do know that Adam is right and that we are entering a very dangerous and sensitive time for mountain biking. We have become high profile and whatever we can do to as a group to improve our image with the powers that be is in our best interests... I really don't want to loose what some of us have worked so hard to gain.

(reformed poacher)

[EMrider]

Originally Posted by OMR

Even better, Adam was the guy who caught me. A friend and I were riding at Aliso Woods at night several years back just down from top of the world on the ridgeline. We were purposefully staying out of what I thought was Aliso Woods. All of a sudden a voice came out of the darkness... "Step off your bikes"... it was Adam. t\Took me completely by surprise that we were poaching in Aliso Woods as I thought the ridge line was Laguna Greenbelt and not Aliso Woods. I found out that night that Laguna had given that section over to the county and it was part of Aliso Woods. Adam accompanied us down to the bottom of Mathis where Ranger Tom (personal friend) and the sheriff were waiting... (Tom's response waas "Oh Gregg... not you!" We were each given tickets for simple tresspass... which ended up costing me in court fees $248. this was not long after Andy had been given his ticket. I was now a convicted poacher! (my younger wilder days)

Here's the point to all this: the ripple throughout the mountain bike community was instantaineous ... those tickets effectively stopped riding in the park at night for that season. I have the distinct feeling that if a couple riders were caught and fined today, that would stop most of the poaching for a while... until people forget and you have to do it again.

Now as a SHARE/OC County Trail Assistant, I try and discourage people from riding the illegal trails and riding in the park after dark. I do know that Adam is right and that we are entering a very dangerous and sensitive time for mountain biking. We have become high profile and whatever we can do to as a group to improve our image with the powers that be is in our best interests... I really don't want to loose what some of us have worked so hard to gain.

(reformed poacher)

Moral suasion does not work. Those who ride illegal trails almost always know what they are doing, and they don't care. Huge penalties and fear of getting caught are the only answer IMHO. Zero tolerance policies work. I've watched this entire drama unfold over the past 10+ years with dirtbikes. The issues and problems are almost identical.
R
R

[JamR]

Originally Posted by OMR

Even better, Adam was the guy who caught me. A friend and I were riding at Aliso Woods at night several years back just down from top of the world on the ridgeline. We were purposefully staying out of what I thought was Aliso Woods. All of a sudden a voice came out of the darkness... "Step off your bikes"... it was Adam. Took me completely by surprise that we were poaching in Aliso Woods as I thought the ridge line was Laguna Greenbelt and not Aliso Woods. I found out that night that Laguna had given that section over to the county and it was part of Aliso Woods. Adam accompanied us down to the bottom of Mathis where Ranger Tom (personal friend) and the sheriff were waiting... (Tom's response was "Oh Gregg... not you!" We were each given tickets for simple trespass... which ended up costing me in court fees $248. this was not long after Andy had been given his ticket. I was now a convicted poacher! (my younger wilder days)

Here's the point to all this: the ripple throughout the mountain bike community was instantaineous ... those tickets effectively stopped riding in the park at night for that season. I have the distinct feeling that if a couple riders were caught and fined today, that would stop most of the poaching for a while... until people forget and you have to do it again.

Now as a SHARE/OC County Trail Assistant, I try and discourage people from riding the illegal trails and riding in the park after dark. I do know that Adam is right and that we are entering a very dangerous and sensitive time for mountain biking. We have become high profile and whatever we can do to as a group to improve our image with the powers that be is in our best interests... I really don't want to loose what some of us have worked so hard to gain.

(reformed poacher)

Ouch....I didn't know you were one of the riders that got tagged on the night enforcements. Glad I don't have to do enforcement any longer. Trail and infrastructure planning is more to my liking.

Hopefully if people will simply discontinue using these areas in unauthorized ways, heavy enforcement won't be necessary.

One thing I'd like people to remember here is that just because we disagree, we can still do so without anger because we still all share a common bond. Our bikes and the trails we love to ride.

Everyone have a happy Turkey Day and hopefully most of you have a nice four-day weekend to get in a lot of riding.

[Kish Me]

Originally Posted by CalEpic

I disagree. I'm not advocating poaching but putting people's pic's up on the internet crosses the line.

Not cool.

This is not the answer.

C

JamR is posting pictures not the names, #'s, and addresses. These riders are fortunate that a friend will call them out and not the authorities.

[OMR]

Originally Posted by JamR

Ouch....I didn't know you were one of the riders that got tagged on the night enforcements.

Everyone have a happy Turkey Day and hopefully most of you have a nice four-day weekend to get in a lot of riding.

You were so funny Adam as you didn't know what Mike & I were going to do. After all, you were out there all by yourself... we could have just as easily ridden off (my first thought) or turned around and beat you senseless and thrown your body in the bushes (my second brief thought) ... but I actually thought we weren't poaching and found out the hard way. Lesson learned

See you tomorrow at SJT...

[JamR]

Originally Posted by OMR

You were so funny Adam as you didn't know what Mike & I were going to do. After all, you were out there all by yourself... we could have just as easily ridden off (my first thought) or turned around and beat you senseless and thrown your body in the bushes (my second brief thought) ... but I actually thought we weren't poaching and found out the hard way. Lesson learned

See you tomorrow at SJT...

I don't know.....I was still pretty fast on the bike back then. Now days I wouldn't stand a chance

[atomrat]

I think posting the pictures could help, but only if peer pressure applied.

Something that I would really like to see is a map with open and closed trails. Some sort of website that contains all trails and what there use is. I know of a couple sites that have some information, but not every trail. If the park system or the Land Managers could post this information, I would like to believe that this will keep even more people honest.

My Co-Bikers and I recently rode to the edge of South Lake Hodges to find the trails closed. We are respecting the signs and waiting for word when the trails will be open again.

As the old saying goes: A Lock only keeps an Honest Person Honest

[g.c.]

With regard to illegal trail riding and access, this has been interesting. Gravy, a well known wheel builder throughout the biking community, was popped for riding Pt Reyes. The case was taken to Federal Court and Gravy served as his own attorney.

Good stuff, read on (thanks to Big Jonny for posting it on DC):


Zimmerman expressed bewilderment as to how the case ended up in court.

"It's rather sad that this case winds up in federal court," he said, shaking is head in disbelief and chuckling.

The magistrate said the issues discussed in his court were policy decisions better left to National Seashore officials to handle, but he did concede Gravenites made some valid points.

"There is a large bicycle user group in Marin County," said Zimmerman, who ordered the return of Gravenites' bike, which was held as evidence. "There may have to be an improvement in signage. Some of what Mr. Gravenites said resonates.
"Presently, the situation really isn't working."

http://www.marinij.com/ci_7467627?source=email

[Abui]

Originally Posted by JamR

[FONT=Verdana]A simple 2' wide single-track does not just have a 2' impact on the habitat. A 2' wide trail that is frequently used forces the existing wildlife to retreat away from the trail and creates an extended zone of impact. It sometimes also now allows for greater access to predators that normally would have been more restricted. If the trails are too close together, the fragment the area thereby furthering the zone of impact.[/FONT]

That is more assumption than fact. (Why are predators more likely to use the trail than prey?) I've seen deer use the trails like we would. In King's Canyon I saw a herd of deer going up switchbacks as orderly in line as a pack train!

Other animals using the trails - skunks!

[kentonn]

Originally Posted by CalEpic

I disagree. I'm not advocating poaching but putting people's pic's up on the internet crosses the line.

Not cool.

This is not the answer.

C

MTB Fashions for 2008:

[kentonn]

Originally Posted by atomrat

I think posting the pictures could help, but only if peer pressure applied.

Something that I would really like to see is a map with open and closed trails. Some sort of website that contains all trails and what there use is. I know of a couple sites that have some information, but not every trail. If the park system or the Land Managers could post this information, I would like to believe that this will keep even more people honest.

My Co-Bikers and I recently rode to the edge of South Lake Hodges to find the trails closed. We are respecting the signs and waiting for word when the trails will be open again.

As the old saying goes: A Lock only keeps an Honest Person Honest

It would only show the low-life, scum sucking, POS loosers where the really cool illegal trails are. Hmmm... I like it.

[Pain Freak]

C'mon that's not even a real mtb"er....white socks, no way!

Happy Thanksgiving all.

[foofighter]

i do love the foilage in the foreground makes it look like paparazzi shots

[JamR]

Originally Posted by Caveman

That is more asumption than fact. (Why are predators more likely to use the trail than prey?) I've seen deer use the trails like we would. In King's Canyon I saw a herd of deer going up switchbacks as orderly in line as a pack train!

Other animals using the trails - skunks!

Actually it is a credible fact that is well documented in the environmental community and by the people who research such issues. There is quite a bit of research on various species that need a certain amount of distance and protection from predator access to successfully procreate. Trails do in many cases break down natural barriers that offer protection to many species.

Not making this stuff up here and it was researched by persons far more educated on the subject than me.

All of our trails have impacts on the habitat.....we just need to make sure a balance is maintained, and I think in most areas the balance is pretty good. That does not mean I agree with all trail closures. Some trail closures I seen in various areas not habitat related, but jurisdictional related.

There are a lot of issues to overcome when it comes to trails, but I still think we have it pretty good here. Over the next four days I plan on putting in somewhere between 100 and 120 miles, and my current plan does not have me duplicating very many trails to achieve that goal.

We have plenty of areas to ride........have fun out there!

[Pilas]

Out of curiosity, what trail is that?
By the way, it was good seeing and meeting new people at the San Juan ride today.
Happy Thanksgiving!

[guero]

Originally Posted by JamR

[color=black][color=black]All of our trails have impacts on the habitat.....

this is nothing against you adam, but in regards to having impact on the habitat, what about all the f**king houses that have taken over el moro and aliso...and what about the golf course that may go in at aliso? (is that still gonna happen?) talk about having an impact on habitat.

i know we need to do whats right in regards to what we have left to ride. it just frustrates me when you see all of the houses that have encroached in the already limited natural space that is left in those areas being discussed.