Another Can of Worms

[SAR_boats]

Originally Posted by Fired Yo Momma

Maybe we need some of these guys to patrol
Take the shot
I think SARs Boats and I would be down for this.

*Disclaimer to all the do good politically correct people that are on this site or visiting this site*

I am in no means promoting any use of violence to solve a problem, this is just a joke. Although I know for sure if these guys popped up on you while you are riding you will never want to ride that trial again.

Sure, I'm down, as long as you understand a few things:

Tracers work both ways
If the target is in range, so are we
Once the pin is pulled, Mr.Grenade is not our friend
If it is inevitable that we are going to get caught by local authorities, youre getting fragged.

So, where should we start?

[slowSSer]

Originally Posted by SAR_boats

Sure, I'm down, as long as you understand a few things:

Tracers work both ways
If the target is in range, so are we
Once the pin is pulled, Mr.Grenade is not our friend
If it is inevitable that we are going to get caught by local authorities, youre getting fragged.

So, where should we start?

what, and newbies are going to start to be called "TFNGs"?

[Fired Yo Momma]

we won't get caught all we have to do is lay out the claymores on our six, right and left flanks.
Remember face out towords enemy

Sorry if we are getting off topic, just having a little fun.

[CPATCRASH]

Originally Posted by slowSSer

what, and newbies are going to start to be called "TFNGs"?

Start?

[slowSSer]

Originally Posted by CPATCRASH

Start?

good point!

[SAR_boats]

Originally Posted by slowSSer

what, and newbies are going to start to be called "TFNGs"?

Yup

But we'll forgo some of the other "traditions" like blood pinning, rank tacking, and shillelaghies

I know, I know that takes all the fun out of it, but remember we need to be a kinder, gentler hit squad. It will be ok to kill, just don't hurt the target's feelings.

[Evil Chocula]

Originally Posted by Evil Chocula

On the front page of dirtrag.com, they've announced a 5 year IMBA initative to open "MTB Centers" through out the US. They already have 5 under construction. I am ignorant of the local situation, but I can't see why some empty, unsusable desert area to the east coudn't be added to the list with the proper amount of lobbying. Why coudn't a user group such as the WS approach the IMBA and get something going?

I know the situation is probaly infinetly more complicated, but as an outsider here on an extended visit, its a hard to understand why so many parts of the US have such highly progressive mountain bike lobbies, and SoCal is so lacking.

OK, time to flame to the east coast guy!

http://www.dirtrag.com/print/article...ry=departments

Nothing on this guys? Every so often my Republic of Massachusettes roots crawl out of the depths of my phyche, and make me want to stir up some old fashinoned activism in Southern Californina, but it nevers seems to go anywhere.

Its clear everyone here wants MTB trails in Southern California; preserving the usage of existing trails would be great, but making our own area would be astronomically better. Does anyone remember this thread from MTBR?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...highlight=park

I spent some serious time working on this. My girlfreind, a non-MTBing attorney, even spent some serious time on this. I was a few e-mails away from having a MTB Park consultant on board, to help draft a proposal for the Tribes in East County. In the end, it completely fizzled out.

This online community could easily be leveraged to make the dream of a SoCal MTB Park/Riding area a reality. Where are the lawyers, MBAs, politicians? I know there are some on here, the most prevalent MTBing demographic are middle aged proffesionals. Yes, I'm leaving, and I know alot of the SoCal natives don't like the East Coast invasion and the subsequent "East Coast 'Tude", but sometimes you need stir up some sh!t to make things happen. If I were reading this post, I'd take the time to read the Dirt Rag link, and the MTBR link.

This seems like it's happening all over the country, why not here? I'm sure many of you will find this post extremely irritating, so this will be last post on the subject. As an outsider of sorts looking in, people in this region are stuck in reactive mode, while the rest of the country is in proactive mode. -Brendan

[~ Pakiha ~]

Originally Posted by ODB

So, giving photographic ammo to groups who want to cut our access AND turning on fellow mountain bikers is a good idea how?

I think He's trying to get the 95% of us to stand up and call out those 5% who are going to get all our trails taken from us. And just because Adam posts the MTB photos doesn't mean there weren't Hikers etc caught by the motion cams either.

[aukmal]

History is riddled with many examples of citizens, employees, and other groups of people who failed to think critically about what their leaders, employers, and representatives were doing. I suspect lack of critical thinking towards the powers that be, can only lead to repeating mistakes of the past. How many examples can be found where members of a given majority group were recruited to turncoat on their, "friends" for the good of cause "X." Only to find out that the minority were right to begin with. Didn't Mom always say, "...just because your friends are doing it..."

In addition to lack of participation, perhaps it's also the lack of well articulated, strong advocates for bicycling that have resulted in losing access. Often times strong, appropriate, and potentially uncomfortable discussion/debate/argumentation is better than blind following.

Here's one possible conversation:
Land Manager to Friendly Bicycling Advocate - "...how are we going to stop 'illegal' trail access?"

Friendly Bicycling Advocate - "Sir, I know how, let's take hundreds of pictures of my fellow mountain bikers, post a few, and threaten the rest...I'm sure I could use, 'peer pressure' and threats of fines / bike impoundments to stop the illegal access..."

Land Manager - "hmmm...perhaps, that might be a difficult position to put yourself in, but you are a very brave and courageous padwan..."

What possible good do you think it accomplishes attempting to demonize, marginalize, and hang these pics on a, "wall of shame." Especially since some, if not many, of those riders may have well thought out ideas on why they do the things they do...how about you?

[OTHRIDER]

Why am I stating this to everyone AGAIN? I say start the fines. Simply ticket one or two riders and watch the message boards light up. The 5% will dwindle to 1%.

In all fairness, the real solution is to ticket people. It might cause publicity & make it difficult for the land managers, but it is the only way to truly solve the problem. I don't necessarily think a $500 ticket for first offenders is reasonable, but hitting them with a $50 should be enough to teach a lesson. Fines greatly increase for repeat offenders.

Unfortunately, the only thing that would make these poachers stop riding illegal or closed trails would be a hefty fine and/or impounding of their bikes.

Couldn't agree more!


Penalties of fines and confiscating bikes will not be that big of a deterrent,

Completely disagree!

Those of you who've seen my license plate know that hunting is my passion. As much fun as I have on a bike, MTB'g is simply a means to keep me healthy enough to hunt & enjoy the outdoors. As a group, hunters have had all the same problems as MTB'rs and then some. Thankfully, most of STR's discussions are tame.

I agree that 100% compliance is not attainable. However, steep fines and confiscations DO work. The CRIT reservation surrounding the Colorado River between Blythe and Parker USED to have tons of poaching, tresspass etc. They instituted hefty fines and confiscated weapons (believe me, there are many nice shotguns costing more than a dozen S.C. Nomads). Real quickly, word got out and within two seasons there were very few violators. I always hear how "heavy handed" the CRIT wildlife officers are - great. Don't break the law and you've got nothing to fear. The wardens are extremely friendly and helpful.

California and several other states have a program called CalTIP (California Turn In Poachers) used to report those breaking fishing, hunting and wildlife laws. Anyone want the same thing for MTB'g? (I hope we never need it). Enforce the existing laws and no more will be needed.

Maybe there are some rich dudes who can afford to lose a $3K bike. But I bet after he (or she) loses a second or third bike and ends up paying the equivalent of 4th bike in fines, they'd cut there losses. (Yeah, some might still need a stick across the noggin' ).

A great topic and an even better display of calm discussions over a flash-point issue. Good job STR's!

I let all the guys leave work early, so I'm heading home for a long ride. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[Marshall Willanholly]

Originally Posted by Evil Chocula

Its clear everyone here wants MTB trails in Southern California; preserving the usage of existing trails would be great, but making our own area would be astronomically better. Does anyone remember this thread from MTBR?

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...highlight=park

I spent some serious time working on this. My girlfreind, a non-MTBing attorney, even spent some serious time on this. I was a few e-mails away from having a MTB Park consultant on board, to help draft a proposal for the Tribes in East County. In the end, it completely fizzled out.

This seems like it's happening all over the country, why not here? I'm sure many of you will find this post extremely irritating, so this will be last post on the subject. As an outsider of sorts looking in, people in this region are stuck in reactive mode, while the rest of the country is in proactive mode. -Brendan

Reading this reminded me of something I read on a moto website last week:

The other track causing some buzz is right here in Temecula, California. Though the rumor has been going around for quite some time about a facility on the Pala Indian Reservation, it looks like it is actually moving forward. I got a peek at the preliminary drawings and if they produce half of what they are planning it is going to be amazing. The drawing showed a motocross track, vet track, kids track, quad track, supermoto track (conjoined with a go cart track), and even a full-scale superbike track! The facility also had a skate park, BMX track, off-road truck area, bleachers and several on site facilities for food and drinks. The Pala MX Park project hasn’t yet been officially released but my source close to it says it is underway. That’s good news for all disciplines of motorcycle enthusiasts. And, because it is on Indian land, the track is less likely to be shut down due to lawsuit. That is one of the reasons that other tracks on Reservations (I.E. Cahuilla Creek MX) have done well. Stay tuned for an upcoming press release from Pala MX.

The idea of MTB-only trails was brought up earlier in the thread and promptly shot down. I'm not sure why this idea is considered so unworkable. My parents live near the McDowell Mountain Regional Park in AZ. They have dedicated MTB trails as well as dedicated hiking trails. The mtb trails are not super-technical or demanding, but it sure is fun to rip around corners secure in the knowledge you are not going to run into a group of hikers or equestrians.

[Evil Chocula]

Originally Posted by Marshall Willanholly

The idea of MTB-only trails was brought up earlier in the thread and promptly shot down. I'm not sure why this idea is considered so unworkable.

I hear you; I don't get it either. No offense people, but it seems like the majority is either too apathethic, too busy, too isolated or too self-absorbed to band together and make something happen, not ask for it.

[dft]

jamr

i am honestly ignorant. what are the "new" legal areas to ride in OC? the existing places i know are santa ana mountains, aliso, oaks, etc. what is there to ride in places like limestone, laguna lakes, irvine property, etc. honest question, i don't know of any of these "recently opened trails". thanks.

ps. if there could be just ONE decent long freeride trail (in the santa ana mountains), that would sure keep alot of folks happen. (ie, a 2500+ vertical foot drop trail with steeps, stunts, jumps, drops, etc). when you ride in the santa ana mountains you realize how laughable all the controversy is at aliso, it isn't even the size of one canyon in SA mountians.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by dft

jamr

i am honestly ignorant. what are the "new" legal areas to ride in OC? the existing places i know are santa ana mountains, aliso, oaks, etc. what is there to ride in places like limestone, laguna lakes, irvine property, etc. honest question, i don't know of any of these "recently opened trails". thanks.

ps. if there could be just ONE decent long freeride trail (in the santa ana mountains), that would sure keep alot of folks happen. (ie, a 2500+ vertical foot drop trail with steeps, stunts, jumps, drops, etc). when you ride in the santa ana mountains you realize how laughable all the controversy is at aliso, it isn't even the size of one canyon in SA mountians.

DFT??? Is this the DFT from the past MHC rides?
Been a long time.

There have definitely been some great successes over the past years.

This past March, Laguna Coast Wilderness Park opened their property north of the 73 fwy.

The City of Irvine Property that is adjacent to it has seen a good increase in access and has been successful in getting 5 of the previously non-sanctioned single-tracks approved for use in their RRMP.

Stairsteps used to be unauthorized
Laguna Ridge (T&A) used to be unauthorized
Emerald Falls (BVD) use to be unauthorized

So just in the South Coast Wilderness area, an additional 5,000 + acres now allow biking.

The City of Irvine for the most part is Docent led, but we have really tried to create a variety of rides to accommodate different levels of riders. There are now beginner clinics and rides, Intermediate clinics and rides, intermediate rides that go between 10 - 13 miles, advanced rides that go between 19 - 25 miles, and epics that are usually around 40 miles. I was looking for a continuous 60 mile route in the northern areas, but the recent fires blew that idea out of the water.

We've added new rides from the Private areas in Black Star that were never used before, and we're still in the process of planning additional trail connections. Some of this planning may take a little time, but things need to be done in the proper manner....and that takes time.

There's a lot of opportunity locally which is why there's really no reason to be jumping private fences to ride.

In Weir, it's definitely not an issue of not having any freeride trails that is causing these fence-jumpers, since there are no freeride trails in that area. It just people not respecting the area.

It's not just bikers either, but this is the forum to send a plea to the biking community. There are hikers, runners, full running clubs, paintballers, dirt bikes, and dogs (which are one of the biggest concerns). Each group is being handled in various ways.

We just wanted to float a balloon here to see what type of comments we would see from the community and this is one of the most active boards for local riders who represent more or less the 95%.

Lot's of different opinions here all the way from no fences anywhere to full citations with no mercy.

We're hoping that peer pressure might be a middle-ground and we'll be beefing up patrols to see if the bike community has enough pull within their peer groups to make a difference in reducing the fence-jumpers.

Also, a lot of valid points have been made about bike specific trails, and built-in trail features. Bike specific is a tough one and the best we have locally so far are the biking only events in the Docent Led Areas. Maybe it's worth the possibility of considering some biking only self-guided days.

From my experience, local land managers are open to suggestions, but they need input from the groups. Lack of group participation is an issue and too few people really get involved.

Built-in features are a tough one for land managers also. Land Managers are protected by several laws pertaining to natural trails. However when man-made structures other than approved designs for bridges, puncheons, culverts, etc.. are built into trails; the cover of liability for the land managers is compromised. It's an unfortunate result of the litigious society we live in.

I do believe there are areas where features would actually benefit certain trails and would make them more enjoyable for many. Example....many switchbacks are built with outslopes at the turns to allow water to drain off the trail instead of following the corner. But this simply promotes riders coming down to rail the inside line until it forms a deep rut; thereby defeating the original construction of the switchback.

If switchbacks could be built with the typical outslope at the turn, but then have a wood berm added around the turn that still allowed for water to drain out. Riders could hold a clean outside line on a nice banked wood berm. This would serve both the trail erosion issue and the fun-factor for bikers.

I can't think of too many local areas that would allow built in features like Mammoth, but maybe some compromises could be made in areas that are not as sensitive as others. These features would probably never be allowed in the NCCP areas, but other less sensitive areas may consider them.

We have it pretty good locally and we just need to things moving forward in a positive way, but we also have to admit the reality that land managers are getting overwhelmed with the amount of bad apples (from all groups), and it makes it difficult at times to focus on the positive things taking place.

Sorry DFT......got off topic a little.

Hope I answered some of your questions on the new trails and areas. Come out on the 15th of December to ride the City of Irvine Trails. They will be open that day for self-guided biking. Nice trail and some really good single-track.

[Steven Jackson]

[TURNERob]

I am unemployed now. How bout you pay me to ride around the parks everyday with a tazer and a ticketbook busting people poaching