Another Can of Worms

[OMR]

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread develop... sort of reminds me of the basic arguments between the Federalists and the States Rights groups during the writing of our constitution.... and NO, I wasn't around during those times. But the parallels are quite similar. It still basically boils down to the rights of the individual vs the rights of the state ... and we continue to argue over these issues to this day. We as a people and a country are ruggled individualists coming together for a common good. It now depending upon who's definition you use for the common good... and therein is the rub.

I find there are valid points on each side of this issue and it will not be resolved here or any other place in the near future. I believe that individualism is a trait of most mountain bikers.. probably why it is so hard for us to really organize.

The bottom line here grasshoppers, is that the actions of a few over time may impact all of us here in SoCal. This is what Adam and others are trying to avoid. We cannot control our own destiny if we work outside the law.

Ok, where am I going with all this? Adam has asked a perfectly valid question: how do we handle those that continue to break the law??? (sorry, whether you agree or disagree whether this is right or not, poaching is breaking the law). Realistically, how do we stop this illegal activity before it escalates to the removal of areas that we won't be able to ride permanently?...

[Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by dstepper

All of these problems, I am selling my bikes and getting a horse. Then maybe I can find harmony.

Dean

I completely agree! Cowboy UP!!!

[JamR]

Originally Posted by OMR

I've been sitting on the sidelines watching this thread develop... sort of reminds me of the basic arguments between the Federalists and the States Rights groups during the writing of our constitution.... and NO, I wasn't around during those times. But the parallels are quite similar. It still basically boils down to the rights of the individual vs the rights of the state ... and we continue to argue over these issues to this day. We as a people and a country are ruggled individualists coming together for a common good. It now depending upon who's definition you use for the common good... and therein is the rub.

I find there are valid points on each side of this issue and it will not be resolved here or any other place in the near future. I believe that individualism is a trait of most mountain bikers.. probably why it is so hard for us to really organize.

The bottom line here grasshoppers, is that the actions of a few over time may impact all of us here in SoCal. This is what Adam and others are trying to avoid. We cannot control our own destiny if we work outside the law.

Ok, where am I going with all this? Adam has asked a perfectly valid question: how do we handle those that continue to break the law??? (sorry, whether you agree or disagree whether this is right or not, poaching is breaking the law). Realistically, how do we stop this illegal activity before it escalates to the removal of areas that we won't be able to ride permanently?...

I would love to hear some constructive suggestions and will definitely consider alternatives.

Tust me.....I don't want to have to be the one to start eliminating rides or access, but if the decision is made to do so, I would unfortunately be the one to have to put such decisions into action. It's not an enjoyable position for me to be in, but if enforcement and citations need to be brought into play; it will only make things worse for biking in general.

These boards have been talking about peer pressure for quite a while now, and to me it seems like it would be the simplest steps to take.

Again...I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks


Added Note:
This post has been coming for a long time but we were hoping it would not be necessary. We have been battling onging vandalism of the fences and signs ever since the Windy Ridge Fire that damaged Weir and Santiago Oaks. We have expended a considerable amount of funds for fence repairs, replacement signs, and the closure of 18 non-authorized trails; and thought that we had made some headway on the problem. But recently the amount of trespassing and vandalism has markedly increased again, so this it simply the first and and the least aggressive steps to take.

Something has to break and we are asking the responsible riders to step up to the plate and help out in all the areas. When the 5% of the bad apples simply get away with their actions year after year and get no grief from their peers who know them.....they have no reason to stop. If these people start getting enough flak from thier peers, they might just think twice.

I've always made my phone number and e-mails available to everyone on these boards, and will always talk to anyone on these issues. If these riders are in the area because they have a particular time they like to ride, then simply contact us. We take all public suggestions seriously, and many of our programs have been added as a direct result of public comments and suggestions.

If you have questions...call. If you have suggestions for rides...call. If you have complaints...call.

All land managers need the help of the users, and most are very willing to listen and work with the groups (not all, but most from my experience). Just give us a chance and talk to us.

If you have issues, comments, suggestions, etc.....contact me at (714) 508-4762 or at amaywhort@irconservancy.org

[JamR]

Originally Posted by ODB

So, giving photographic ammo to groups who want to cut our access AND turning on fellow mountain bikers is a good idea how? ... You realize you're not going to change anyone's behavior through this exercise, don't you? You'll only serve to embolden user groups who already have a dim view of the MTB community. Why not break out a speed gun, too, and start calling riders out for going over the 15 mph speed limit designated for most multi-use trails? Good god, man.

I actually agree with your sentiments, but I think it is the 5% of riders who has turned on the rest us. The other groups are no less culpable than ours, and there are plenty of photos of runners, hikers, paintballers, dirt bikes, dog owners, etc... and like I said earlier....some of these have received much harsher consequences already. However trespassing in a closed protected area by climbing over a fence that has numerous signs (especially in an area where access is allowed through various channels), does not compare to trail speed.

If we chose to, these riders could have simply been arrested....but that in itself would have spurred a heated debate on these boards.

Please give me some other options to curb the trespassing, fence-cutting, and trail-cutting taking place in this area.

[2w4s]

JamR, I certainly don't envy your position and I don't know the answer other than to find more open space areas to put trails. With the prospected population explosion in SoCal and the increasing popularity of the sport I don't think it will matter how many signs you place or what kind of peer pressure you use because the majority of the poachers will never even be effected. How many people quit speeding when they get a ticket? none. I'm pretty sure it's a small proportion of riders who use these boards or care about the future of the sport, unfortunately. Posting a pic of somebody who'll never see it really won't deter them from poaching.

[Edog]

only going to get worse. More homes, more people less space. The longer we are identified as a problem goup by land managers the less they are going to protect our rights & the more space we are going to lose.
I mean we are always complaining that we need our own space & want special treatment, but to be honest what have we done to deserve it, seems like the attitude is that is our right, it's our entitlement.
I'm sick of watching Laguna Canyon & other local areas become ribboned by illegal trails. It's disrespectful to everybody & certainly a big F YOU to the people managing those areas.

DO THE CRIME DO THE TIME

If you choose to trespress or ride in out of bounds areas, be prepared to pay the price. I'm all for confication of equipment & heavy fines if you get caught. If thats what it takes to stop the abuse of public land. Go for it. I think having your picture posted should be the least of your worrries.

slow down after I got 4 tickets in a row & then got banned for 6 months! Good job i had my bike to get to work after that

Originally Posted by 2w4s

JamR, I certainly don't envy your position and I don't know the answer other than to find more open space areas to put trails. With the prospected population explosion in SoCal and the increasing popularity of the sport I don't think it will matter how many signs you place or what kind of peer pressure you use because the majority of the poachers will never even be effected. How many people quit speeding when they get a ticket? none. I'm pretty sure it's a small proportion of riders who use these boards or care about the future of the sport, unfortunately.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by ddmansprty

It would be cool if we could some how manage to create areas that are just for MTB's. There are several areas in Southern California that are set aside for just hikers, or hikers and equestrian use. It is difficult to share trails when our sport is faster, and creates a danger for other groups using the same trails. I will admit that I am an avid hiker and MTB'er. I totally understand both sides of the issue. However, IF I decide to hike, I always hike on trails specifically designated for hiking. This is not to take away from the issue about riding in restricted areas. The state/local government does a lousy job addressing all types of recreation in our local mountains, and the access, or lack of, for MTB'ers is not in our favor. Perhaps if they land was distributed more evenly for all groups, we would not have these problems. I guess the real issue is you can't make all groups happy.

It would be really nice to have a biking only area close by, but unfortunately not likely.

The best that we have locally is some biking only tours in these areas where there are no hikers or equestrians on the trails. Likewise there are hiking only events and equestrian only events....so right now it's the best we can do locally.

I've always admitted that there is a discrepancy in single-use access, but that's not a justification for the types of actions that you see in the photos. The reason I'm bring a few of these photos to the forefront now is that the problem has recently spiked and it's causing great concern with quite a few groups who are helping to monitor this area; and if not handled can have a very negative impact for us.

These pictures would not be up if it were not for the boldness of their acts during a very crowded period where they were probably seen by other users. Not a good message to send.

[m210]

jamr: post 'em if you got 'em.
dont like your picture taken? dont poach the trails.
cameras are there and in place to serve a purpose. i only wish there a more effective use for them (the photos).

[foofighter]

I feel that if the 5% are breaking the law, then I am all for a heavy handed approach with citations that impact their wallet...little written warnings will not deter them...fines do and when enough of these 5% get cited the word will spread and hopefully you'll have a decrease in trespassing. This should not only apply to mtn bikers but to hikers as well that willful and knowingly jump fences and trespass.

Now with the illegal trail making and the use of herbicides that are in violation of city, state and some federal laws protecting sensitive habitat my only thought on that is if you catch the buggers you should throw the book at them...publicize it so that it will get the word out.

We as a community should also ban together and discourage others that talk about doing things like this as we all know how tight this community is and how strong a voice we have and how much influence we have with other riders that we could definitely affect change.

[JamR]

Originally Posted by 2w4s

JamR, I certainly don't envy your position and I don't know the answer other than to find more open space areas to put trails. With the prospected population explosion in SoCal and the increasing popularity of the sport I don't think it will matter how many signs you place or what kind of peer pressure you use because the majority of the poachers will never even be effected. How many people quit speeding when they get a ticket? none. I'm pretty sure it's a small proportion of riders who use these boards or care about the future of the sport, unfortunately. Posting a pic of somebody who'll never see it really won't deter them from poaching.

Not really expecting them to see it.

More hoping that someone here will recognize them and talk to them.

Better yet, just to get more people willing to simply speak up to riders when they see them doing these things. How many people here have ever taken the time to simply talk to people they see entering or coming out of an unauthorized trail? It's not a pleasant thing to do, but it's a necessary step.

Doing the right thing does not necessarily make you popular, but I really don't want to see any reduction in access.

I'm not joking when I say that we're really on the edge of seeing very harsh enforcement shortly, and the number of blatant photos like this seems to indicate that users don't think it will happen.

A few photos on a mountain bike site is a lot less damaging than reading a newspaper article about bikers being arrested. If we're not careful we can lose a lot of the ground we have gained over the past decade.

Just asking everyone to get involved before we see citations becoming necessary.

If any of you know these riders, just have them call me and I will be happy to speak with them personally and give them other options.

Thanks

[JamR]

Originally Posted by m210

jamr: post 'em if you got 'em.
dont like your picture taken? dont poach the trails.
cameras are there and in place to serve a purpose. i only wish there a more effective use for them.

The cameras are actually there for a very positive purpose which is wildlife monitoring, and there are some very impressive photos showing up regularly.

This fact is also why the science groups are equally concerned with the non-wildlife photos, because all access impacts wildlife, but the managed access is held to limits that have minimal impacts. Non-managed access is a great concern for many of the managing agencies that the land managers have to report to.

We really do want to start slow and take the least aggressive steps to curb trespassing, vandalism, and trail cutting, and hope not to have to step it up.

We need everyone's help in this area.

Please just be willing to speak to people you see doing these actions, but still be polite. Just talk to people on non-sanctioned trails, talk to dog owners in these areas, and please talk to any knuckleheads you see smoking in these areas. We've had way too many fires in the past two years.

[SAR_boats]

The Rangers and land-management types have put themselves into a Catch-22. They take heat when they enforce the law (just a few days ago was the incident of trail poaching in Marin and I didn't see one post supporting the actions of the lawman) so they stop enforcing the law and wonder why those laws continue to be broken. What is boils down to is perception:

The perception by the MTBers that the BLM, USFS et. al. are greedy, senseless bureaucrats who have no idea of what they are doing

The perception by the BLM, USFS et. al. that MTBers are scruffy, poaching yahoos who erode trails, scare wildlife and have no idea what they are doing.

Obviously, I am geralizing, but if you consider what kind of contact the one group has with the other, it is easy to see how these perceptions are formed.

Is posting pictures the answer? No. If you are frusterated with the fact that poaching continues then do your job. Issue citations. Confiscate bikes. I hold no illusion, and neither should you, that this will make you popular or respected. Just as I have no illusion that my opinion will be popular or respected. But the simple fact of the matter is that you have decided to put yourself into a position of responsibility and by avoiding that responibility you are doing favor to no one.

[m210]

jamr - although it may seem like common sense, but maybe you could share in as much detail as you can what the situation is trending towards. in other words, maybe some statistics: "if the current trend continues, lwp (or any park) will be off limits by XXX".
i feel this is a situation where the tip of they pyramid needs to be made an example of so the rest will get the message. but maybe some real facts will help make that message clear....

[2w4s]

JamR, just curious, not being a smartas$. You say that you've been trying to open previously closed trails. What is keeping you from opening them? As I see it, more users + fewer trails = more damage to the open trails. Wouldn't having more open trails actually mitigate damage to a greater area and be less threatening to wildlife?

[JamR]

Two big can of worms in two days

But hopefully a lot of education and positive action will come out of them. We are definitely a close-knit group and share a common passion for the trails, and 95% of the group is on the up and up.....and even the 5% are not bad people. They are not as concerned with the image of our sport.

Sometimes we simply need to look beyond our own immediate gratification and think about the bigger picture.

I would love to ride Marie's and some of the other trails; but I also know that on bigger picture; this would damage our reputation...and for what? A three minute thrill that can be achieved on Stairsteps or Laguna Ridge.

If we were completely lacking in great trails and great areas, I could somewhat understand these actions. Be we are not lacking trails in any sense of the word.

Hopefully this post gets some people thinking.

Now on to getting ready for the four-day weekend of riding. Hope to see you out there, and hope to see you at the new ride we're putting into the Northern area. The maiden voyage of this ride takes place on the 8th of December. 25 miles and 4,400 feet of climbing. Should be a great ride.

[Wrecker]

Adam,

I truly respect you and the position you hold, as well as your tenacity at teaching. Thank you for your time and dedication to our trails.

As much as I'd like to say the pics shouldn't be posted, I am also apt to agree that it may deter at least one more person from heading out. Somehow, I tend to believe that these guys are on more than the one picture that you have shown and need a little bit of picking on.

[schleppp]

Post the pictures. Make huge posters and put them up in all the LBS's, and give rewards for running these people off the trail!!! Ok, maybe a little over the top, but I am not opposed to the picture idea.